Is it me or do theists hate logic...
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29-01-2014, 07:49 PM
RE: Is it me or do theists hate logic...
(29-01-2014 03:48 PM)Kestrel Wrote:  
(29-01-2014 03:40 PM)BlackMason Wrote:  Is it me or do theists hate logic like vampires hate sun light?
Do be careful with those broad brush strokes, will you? Wink

Agree with Kestrel. Don't paint all with the same oil paint.

There are many different types of theism - some find logic repugnant like the breath of the devil whilst others deeply respect logic and rationality and in fact helped to develop it historically.

There are theists such as Descartes, Aquinas & Averroes (and many others - from the Islamic, Christian and Jewish scholastic traditions) who used logic and developed it - even the concept of Occam's razor was developed from a theistic system (not strictly logic but useful heuristic tool used in logic and science)
For that matter large parts of mathematics we have today were developed because theists thought rationality was akin to the mind of God and perceived this is mathematical terms. (again there are Islamic & Jewish sources for this and in Christianity "the logos" was akin to the mind of God manifest in reason)

So what went wrong ?

The problem with much of the theistic logical-rational systems was they were sceptical and did not emphasize & incorporate the empirical observable world as trustworthy - considering it prone to illusions, misinterpretation or too superficial hiding the realist rational source "the logos" behind phenomenal illusions.

Who's to blame ? PLATO !!! (or those heavily influenced by rationalism without empiricism - consider Descartes who was suspicious of empiricism and is known as a "classical rationalist")

Aristotle tried to challenge the platonistic rationalism by doing observations and classifications - developing in some sense one of the first taxonomists of nature (and what we consider science)
Then the religious systems branched of into those trying to be all logical/rational and incorporating Platonism (Augustine for example). Those trying to do both empiricism & rationalism and incorporate Aristotle (Aquinas, Maimonides, Avveroes) and those rejecting both (Al-Ghazali in Islam focusing back onto revelation & scripture and equivalents in Judaism and Christianity especially in the reformation)

So - there are many strands to theism, some hyper rational "armchair rationalism" which loses its way because it becomes divorced from real data collection and empirical science.
Then there are the religious who deny the necessity for logic, including in the East who see rational, logical thought as impeding & preventing revelation or divine understanding.

In some forms of Christianity this gets even worse with two logics or reason
1. "Divine logic" = everything the bible says and
2. "human logic" = fallen & sinful human limited opinions.
- IT IS THIS TYPE OF CHRISTIANITY which you are referring to - these sort of theists hate logic like vampires hating the sunlight.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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29-01-2014, 08:21 PM
RE: Is it me or do theists hate logic...
(29-01-2014 07:49 PM)Baruch Wrote:  So - there are many strands to theism, some hyper rational "armchair rationalism" which loses its way because it becomes divorced from real data collection and empirical science.
Then there are the religious who deny the necessity for logic, including in the East who see rational, logical thought as impeding & preventing revelation or divine understanding.

Ain't an impedance for some. ... Just sayin'. Tongue ... Don't mean Girly don't know his logic and shit. I been trained bitches. Tongue

(29-01-2014 07:49 PM)Baruch Wrote:  In some forms of Christianity this gets even worse with two logics or reason
1. "Divine logic" = everything the bible says and
2. "human logic" = fallen & sinful human limited opinions.

GirlyMan readily admits a shitload of different valid logics, but neither of those pass the "soundness" test.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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29-01-2014, 08:22 PM
RE: Is it me or do theists hate logic...
(29-01-2014 08:21 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(29-01-2014 07:49 PM)Baruch Wrote:  So - there are many strands to theism, some hyper rational "armchair rationalism" which loses its way because it becomes divorced from real data collection and empirical science.
Then there are the religious who deny the necessity for logic, including in the East who see rational, logical thought as impeding & preventing revelation or divine understanding.

Ain't an impedance for some. ... Just sayin'. Tongue ... Don't mean Girly don't know his logic and shit. I been trained bitches. Tongue

(29-01-2014 07:49 PM)Baruch Wrote:  In some forms of Christianity this gets even worse with two logics or reason
1. "Divine logic" = everything the bible says and
2. "human logic" = fallen & sinful human limited opinions.

GirlyMan readily admits a shitload of different valid logics, but neither of those pass the "soundness" test.

Nothing passes the soundness test if one is deaf.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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29-01-2014, 08:27 PM
RE: Is it me or do theists hate logic...
I have seriously had debates with the "Divine logic" vs "human logic" theists in hyde park corner.

I wasn't sure if hitting them on the head with a baseball bat passed the logical "soundness test" - they didn't teach this method in philosophy 101 class.

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A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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29-01-2014, 08:45 PM
RE: Is it me or do theists hate logic...
RE: Is it me or do theists hate logic...


(29-01-2014 04:37 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(29-01-2014 04:34 PM)BlackMason Wrote:  Fair enough. By the way what do you believe in and what would it take to make you stop?
Kestrel explained his beliefs extensively in this post, but why would you want to make him stop? Consider

"I believe in a risen and living Christ.
I believe that the bible is the inspired word of God and use it in conjunction with my life experiences in order to grow in my belief."



'Nuf said.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


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29-01-2014, 08:50 PM
RE: Is it me or do theists hate logic...
(29-01-2014 03:40 PM)BlackMason Wrote:  Is it me or do theists hate logic like vampires hate sun light?

I'm not claiming to be the custodian of logic and reason or anything, but c'mon! I make a few observations and I try to make sense of what I see that's all. So why do I get the "we gonna fuck you up if you don't stop that bullshit" look?

One of the observations I've made is hard to confirm. So I said that christians tend to not consider a plan B for a number of situations. This is because they seem to fear that the existence of plan B is an admission of a lack of faith in plan A. So then if plan A doesn't work, they get blasted by other christians for being irresponsible for not having a plan B. It's a catch 22.

So my mom called bullshit. Then I asked her to not stop there but to actually elobrate. She decided not to. Earlier I put up a thread checking on whether or not I'm sane. I come up against so much adversity that I end up thinking that I said something wrong. Yeah I'm venting.

I've been trying the whole being undercover thing. It's hard. I fear that one of my family members are going to do something stupid because they just don't seem to understand how reality works. Thanks to Jesus. The stuff that comes out their mouths...oh my god!!! So I'm often forced to risk my cover by trying to make some reality corrections.

I try to increase their level of skepticism and it almost always back fires. There's this incredible story about how our church got built. They'd run out of money and the contractors needed 40 grand otherwise they'd abandon the construction contract. So right at the last, when everybody had given up, a stranger who knew nothing about the contract says "the lord commanded me to give these contractors 40 thousand". And the church was built happily ever after. Now I challenge that story by asking is there an independent source that can verify that story as is? Preachers come up with bogus miracle stories to demonstrate to their sheeple that god is with them. The sheep...I mean people will flock...that's walk, I meant walk...in and be willing whole heartedly to give away their money. Neat tactic. In response to that I'm met with a "don't touch the lords annointed lest he smite thee!!

It is these stories that I hate. They teach theists a warped sense of reality. They readily put themselves in stupid situations or at the very least, expect a miraculous last minute saving from god as these stories always go. Now we all know what happens in real life...boom you now have to get two jobs to stay afloat.

Yes! But they only ignore the logic that disagrees with their belief and they embrace this pseudo-logic.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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30-01-2014, 03:12 AM
RE: Is it me or do theists hate logic...
(29-01-2014 04:37 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(29-01-2014 04:34 PM)BlackMason Wrote:  Fair enough. By the way what do you believe in and what would it take to make you stop?
Kestrel explained his beliefs extensively in this post, but why would you want to make him stop? Consider

The purpose of the question is to see whether or not the person can be reasoned with and they are capable of rationality. This is not evident if the answer is "Nothing can shake my faith".

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
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30-01-2014, 04:06 AM
RE: Is it me or do theists hate logic...
(29-01-2014 04:34 PM)BlackMason Wrote:  Fair enough. By the way what do you believe in and what would it take to make you stop?
My faith ends when I die.

As far as logic, I'm compelled to point out differences between myself and seemingly, most other believers.
I'll be the first to admit, that my faith is not logical.
So when Taq posts:

(29-01-2014 08:45 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  RE: Is it me or do theists hate logic...
"I believe in a risen and living Christ.
I believe that the bible is the inspired word of God and use it in conjunction with my life experiences in order to grow in my belief."

'Nuf said.
...he is equating my faith with logic. But my faith is not a conclusion of my logic. Rather instead, and perhaps this speaks to Baruch's fine response, my logic is applied toward reasoning what I feel of that faith with what I know of the world and people in it.

One of the primary results of this can be empirically observed by the fact that I am 120 or so posts on an atheist board, in which I flat out state what I believe and no one has "come at" me because of my faith. This is because I do not confuse logic, which we all share to differing degrees, with what is admittedly, illogical. That being my belief in the God of the bible.

My fellow believers do treat their faith as a conclusion which directly conflicts with the book we share as a source of information regarding our faith. We all clearly see how far that gets them and what that resulting mindset acheives for all parties involved.
Not much.

When it comes to the difference between the lions share of my fellow believers and myself, I'll reach into a recent post of Chippy's and declare myself as different from them as east from west.

To be clear, I don't take Black Mason's broad brush personally. I always go through this shakedown period when I introduce myself to a new forum. It is only necessary due to my fellow believers behavior that is well established.

Even then, I am continually brushing off myself the shit they splatter around.
Eh. It's a result of sharing the same core faith, yet with completely different approaches.

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
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31-01-2014, 04:15 AM
RE: Is it me or do theists hate logic...
(30-01-2014 03:12 AM)BlackMason Wrote:  The purpose of the question is to see whether or not the person can be reasoned with and they are capable of rationality. This is not evident if the answer is "Nothing can shake my faith".
If you feel driven towards a more "hands on" approach to shaking my faith, you simply need only to prove to me that god (any god[s]) exist.

That would eliminate not only my faith, but I'd be compelled to renounce Christ.

Get to it! Drinking Beverage

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
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