Is it naive to find mysticism and mystery in the universe?
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24-02-2014, 11:34 AM
Is it naive to find mysticism and mystery in the universe?
As a Naturalist, this question was always curious to get into. I think I subscribe to the textbook wiki definition of naturalist: Naturalism is "the idea or belief that only natural laws and forces operate in the world; the idea or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world."

However, I take that view a little further. I think that the term nature is too dynamic and encompassing to be exhausted already when trying to describe an event in the universe. The "physical realm" is a useless term to me because we still don't know how far that term reaches. It's like saying the "universal realm" to me, because both has such a huge scope that differentiating physical from supernatural forces seems impossible until we have more information about the reality we are in.

So when I hear people say that they still find a spiritual side to the world, or a mystical mystery about it, I wonder if people aren't just naively wishing that there was something in the universe that they can't confirm is there. This whole movement of self enlightenment sounds like the very same thing, trying to put things into the world that we can't confirm is there, and then using that ignorance about what we think we should know to make the unknown seem mystical.

I dunno, just my two cents. What do you guys think about the supernatural?

It's only a debate if both parties are willing to let each other's opinions change their own.
If you aren't willing to change in light of learning more about what you fight for, what the hell are you doing expecting the other party to want to change?
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24-02-2014, 11:46 AM
RE: Is it naive to find mysticism and mystery in the universe?
(24-02-2014 11:34 AM)le_bard Wrote:  As a Naturalist, this question was always curious to get into. I think I subscribe to the textbook wiki definition of naturalist: Naturalism is "the idea or belief that only natural laws and forces operate in the world; the idea or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world."

However, I take that view a little further. I think that the term nature is too dynamic and encompassing to be exhausted already when trying to describe an event in the universe. The "physical realm" is a useless term to me because we still don't know how far that term reaches. It's like saying the "universal realm" to me, because both has such a huge scope that differentiating physical from supernatural forces seems impossible until we have more information about the reality we are in.

So when I hear people say that they still find a spiritual side to the world, or a mystical mystery about it, I wonder if people aren't just naively wishing that there was something in the universe that they can't confirm is there. This whole movement of self enlightenment sounds like the very same thing, trying to put things into the world that we can't confirm is there, and then using that ignorance about what we think we should know to make the unknown seem mystical.

I dunno, just my two cents. What do you guys think about the supernatural?
It depends?
What is supernatural?
And also, does a naturalist account for alternate universes/dimensions?
Take clarke's three laws for example.
1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

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24-02-2014, 11:50 AM
RE: Is it naive to find mysticism and mystery in the universe?
(24-02-2014 11:34 AM)le_bard Wrote:  As a Naturalist, this question was always curious to get into. I think I subscribe to the textbook wiki definition of naturalist: Naturalism is "the idea or belief that only natural laws and forces operate in the world; the idea or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world."

However, I take that view a little further. I think that the term nature is too dynamic and encompassing to be exhausted already when trying to describe an event in the universe. The "physical realm" is a useless term to me because we still don't know how far that term reaches. It's like saying the "universal realm" to me, because both has such a huge scope that differentiating physical from supernatural forces seems impossible until we have more information about the reality we are in.

So when I hear people say that they still find a spiritual side to the world, or a mystical mystery about it, I wonder if people aren't just naively wishing that there was something in the universe that they can't confirm is there. This whole movement of self enlightenment sounds like the very same thing, trying to put things into the world that we can't confirm is there, and then using that ignorance about what we think we should know to make the unknown seem mystical.

I dunno, just my two cents. What do you guys think about the supernatural?


The "supernatural" is just something I'm still figuring out doesn't exist. As soon as I get my over active imagination under control and can live silly-free I'll get back to you with a proper response.
For now.......... Yes......... the belief in ANYthing supernatural is just a wish for something more than a hard cruel world.
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24-02-2014, 11:56 AM
RE: Is it naive to find mysticism and mystery in the universe?
The definition of naturalism is not a helpful one. If "magic" were to occur, wouldn't magic then be a part of nature?

Supernaturalism and magic should just be literally terms. Things that cannot exist - or appear to not exist, but are made to appear in fiction.

edit: and there's a difference between "impossible" and "I don't know."
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24-02-2014, 11:57 AM
RE: Is it naive to find mysticism and mystery in the universe?
Wishing something were true, never makes it such. If it were remotely legitimate, there would be a branch of science investigating, acquiring evidence, creating working hypotheses, testing models, etc.

Mysticism, spirituality, and supernature may simply be yet undiscovered quantum phenomena. However, it still requires evidence.

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24-02-2014, 12:09 PM
RE: Is it naive to find mysticism and mystery in the universe?
(24-02-2014 11:57 AM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  Wishing something were true, never makes it such. If it were remotely legitimate, there would be a branch of science investigating, acquiring evidence, creating working hypotheses, testing models, etc.

Mysticism, spirituality, and supernature may simply be yet undiscovered quantum phenomena. However, it still requires evidence.

(24-02-2014 11:56 AM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  The definition of naturalism is not a helpful one. If "magic" were to occur, wouldn't magic then be a part of nature?

Supernaturalism and magic should just be literally terms. Things that cannot exist - or appear to not exist, but are made to appear in fiction.

edit: and there's a difference between "impossible" and "I don't know."


These two posts are more a less a combination of what I think. "Nature" is about as vague as
the word "Universe"

We don't ever say something is superuniversal, or post universal. It's just silly, as the term "universe" will always describe everything as a whole, no matter how much the innards change.

It's only a debate if both parties are willing to let each other's opinions change their own.
If you aren't willing to change in light of learning more about what you fight for, what the hell are you doing expecting the other party to want to change?
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24-02-2014, 12:24 PM
RE: Is it naive to find mysticism and mystery in the universe?
(24-02-2014 11:46 AM)Alex_Leonardo Wrote:  
(24-02-2014 11:34 AM)le_bard Wrote:  As a Naturalist, this question was always curious to get into. I think I subscribe to the textbook wiki definition of naturalist: Naturalism is "the idea or belief that only natural laws and forces operate in the world; the idea or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world."

However, I take that view a little further. I think that the term nature is too dynamic and encompassing to be exhausted already when trying to describe an event in the universe. The "physical realm" is a useless term to me because we still don't know how far that term reaches. It's like saying the "universal realm" to me, because both has such a huge scope that differentiating physical from supernatural forces seems impossible until we have more information about the reality we are in.

So when I hear people say that they still find a spiritual side to the world, or a mystical mystery about it, I wonder if people aren't just naively wishing that there was something in the universe that they can't confirm is there. This whole movement of self enlightenment sounds like the very same thing, trying to put things into the world that we can't confirm is there, and then using that ignorance about what we think we should know to make the unknown seem mystical.

I dunno, just my two cents. What do you guys think about the supernatural?
It depends?
What is supernatural?
And also, does a naturalist account for alternate universes/dimensions?
Take clarke's three laws for example.
1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

True, supernatural is pretty vague, but let's go with the dictionary.com definition

"(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature."

with that said, supernatural is pretty much unknown natural causes, making the whole term kind of silly anyway. But as for the question about naturalism, I'd go with what the other people have said and say yeah, it probably would still be natural. Natural has often been summarized to mean : "aligning with the nature of existence" so that pretty much means everything, answering my own question aha.

Though people use natural at time to mean the status the nature of the universe as we currently understand it. Physical, Universe, Natural... how important are these words really? It's only when you try and say "oh you're just some naive naturalist" that I scratch my head and try to defend a position so vague everything falls under it anyway

It's only a debate if both parties are willing to let each other's opinions change their own.
If you aren't willing to change in light of learning more about what you fight for, what the hell are you doing expecting the other party to want to change?
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24-02-2014, 12:29 PM
RE: Is it naive to find mysticism and mystery in the universe?
(24-02-2014 12:24 PM)le_bard Wrote:  "aligning with the nature of existence" so that pretty much means everything, answering my own question aha.

lolThumbsup

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24-02-2014, 12:34 PM
RE: Is it naive to find mysticism and mystery in the universe?
(24-02-2014 12:29 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(24-02-2014 12:24 PM)le_bard Wrote:  "aligning with the nature of existence" so that pretty much means everything, answering my own question aha.

lolThumbsup

This actually brings me back to third grade when i asked my teacher if I could ask a question that i already knew the answer to to see what everyone else thought. She didn't mind but suggested that I don't actually admit that i knew the answer Yes

It's only a debate if both parties are willing to let each other's opinions change their own.
If you aren't willing to change in light of learning more about what you fight for, what the hell are you doing expecting the other party to want to change?
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24-02-2014, 12:35 PM
RE: Is it naive to find mysticism and mystery in the universe?
If we're saying reality is observable interaction, then anything which is observed is necessarily explicable, having occurred by some (observable) means. The foundational premises of scientific investigation are that if something is observable then it is explicable and if it is explicable then it is predictable. And we're running a pretty good track record on that so far...

So I've never found "supernatural" to be anything but a meaningless term. Does it mean "things we don't currently understand"? Most of the phenomena to which it is applied are in fact demonstrably not real or worse impossible by definition... Does it mean "things which we cannot understand"? Whatever reason is there to conclude there is any such thing? Notwithstanding that I have never yet seen that expressed as anything other than part of "science doesn't understand [woo X], therefore I do"; we all know how miserably that "understanding" always fails to generate reproducible predictions and results.

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