Is it possible?
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15-11-2011, 03:05 PM
Is it possible?
I am not a scientist so please bear with me.

In The God Delusion Dawkins makes some reference to the issue of, if a god did possibly exist, he would have had to evolve in some manner to reach that dubious status.

Within a boundless universe and infinite time is it not possible that evolution has occurred in many areas and we, perhaps, are part of an orchestrated experiment by higher alien beings via evolution or panspermia?

In this scenario there would be no moral imperatives neccessaarily incumbent upon the perpetrators....Huh
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15-11-2011, 03:18 PM
RE: Is it possible?
We can only calculate what's possible within our ability to observe. Anything could be possible for all we know, outside of our ability to observe. If we can't observe it and attempt to calculate the definition of it, then we have know way to know whether it's possible or not. So maybe it's possible? It's possible that it is possible, I suppose. Big Grin There's got to be a better way to phrase that...

How's that for a non-answer!

Maybe a certain retired physicist can enlighten us! Smile

Maybe that's not a physicist thing- or maybe it is, I don't know.
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15-11-2011, 03:28 PM
RE: Is it possible?
(15-11-2011 03:18 PM)kineo Wrote:  We can only calculate what's possible within our ability to observe. Anything could be possible for all we know, outside of our ability to observe. If we can't observe it and attempt to calculate the definition of it, then we have know way to know whether it's possible or not. So maybe it's possible? It's possible that it is possible, I suppose. Big Grin There's got to be a better way to phrase that...

How's that for a non-answer!

Maybe a certain retired physicist can enlighten us! Smile

Maybe that's not a physicist thing- or maybe it is, I don't know.

Thanks Kineo
I had to formulate "is it possible?" in O.P. as possibilities of possibilities is very cumbersome and tends to annot people. Probably far too much on our secular plates anyway.Smile
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15-11-2011, 03:49 PM
RE: Is it possible?
Sure it's possible.
Whatever morality rules the people one magnitude, or two, or whatever more advanced they are than us, it doesn't apply to us, and we could have no way of knowing what moral code applies to them, let alone enforce it.
So we're still on our own.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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15-11-2011, 04:23 PM
RE: Is it possible?
Sorry about that Mr Woof, I think I missed your larger point, my apologies, I didn't mean to distract from your question. I'm neither a scientist nor a philosopher so I hope not to annoy others with my thoughts as I sort of think out loud.

I think it's really interesting to think about, maybe our universe is within another universe, etc. I think Peterkin is probably right when he says that such beings would be beyond our definition to apply the same moral code. Would ethics transcend that sort of advancement? I don't know if our definition necessarily would- but I hope that it would. Our morality has evolved right along with us and I would expect that a more advanced evolutionary product would have also evolved morality if it were a conscious being as we would define consciousness. I wonder if that morality would be the same morality.

In my own arguments against religion I hold the God of the Bible to the same standard of morality that I would hold humanity to. If this god where simply a being more evolved than us, then the moral standard might not apply. But maybe that's different because the Bible sets out a specific morality code that the same god within does not follow, which seems hypocritical to me. I think the same could be said about any deity that might require that people for their moral code, especially if they themselves claim to be above that code. I would say that any evolved being who has created our universe as an experiment ought to be held to the same code of ethics that it would expect of us- if there is any expectation for us at all.

I've probably completely missed your point again lol, but I hope not. Big Grin
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15-11-2011, 05:00 PM
RE: Is it possible?
(15-11-2011 04:23 PM)kineo Wrote:  Sorry about that Mr Woof, I think I missed your larger point, my apologies, I didn't mean to distract from your question. I'm neither a scientist nor a philosopher so I hope not to annoy others with my thoughts as I sort of think out loud.

I think it's really interesting to think about, maybe our universe is within another universe, etc. I think Peterkin is probably right when he says that such beings would be beyond our definition to apply the same moral code. Would ethics transcend that sort of advancement? I don't know if our definition necessarily would- but I hope that it would. Our morality has evolved right along with us and I would expect that a more advanced evolutionary product would have also evolved morality if it were a conscious being as we would define consciousness. I wonder if that morality would be the same morality.

In my own arguments against religion I hold the God of the Bible to the same standard of morality that I would hold humanity to. If this god where simply a being more evolved than us, then the moral standard might not apply. But maybe that's different because the Bible sets out a specific morality code that the same god within does not follow, which seems hypocritical to me. I think the same could be said about any deity that might require that people for their moral code, especially if they themselves claim to be above that code. I would say that any evolved being who has created our universe as an experiment ought to be held to the same code of ethics that it would expect of us- if there is any expectation for us at all.

I've probably completely missed your point again lol, but I hope not. Big Grin

Ah Kineo I think you are a philosopher without realising it.Blush

Peterkin; I agree with you too; we are bounded by the cognitive abilities of our species. We speculate about higher cosmic ethics at our own peril.Smile
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15-11-2011, 05:31 PM
RE: Is it possible?
(15-11-2011 05:00 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Ah Kineo I think you are a philosopher without realising it.Blush

Peterkin; I agree with you too; we are bounded by the cognitive abilities of our species. We speculate about higher cosmic ethics at our own peril.Smile

Thank you for the encouragement! Blush But I without someone else to bring up the topic, I am not certain I would have thought about this myself. This place is always good for food for thought! Big Grin
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15-11-2011, 05:55 PM
RE: Is it possible?
(15-11-2011 04:23 PM)kineo Wrote:  In my own arguments against religion I hold the God of the Bible to the same standard of morality that I would hold humanity to.

So do i, and for much the same reason: what we are holding this god to is supposedly his own code of ethics. Since this god is obviously a human construct, what other code could he have? But then, there is quite a bit of variation in social mores from one human culture to another, and changes in the same culture over time, so this xtian god is less intellectually evolved than the modern educated human, and we're probably doing him an injustice, to judge him by the local, current morality, of which we ourselves are a product.

Quote: If this god where simply a being more evolved than us, then the moral standard might not apply.

Simply? Seems to me that an advanced alien is far less simple - to us - than an earth-born god. Aliens would have an entirely different history and culture, of which we have no idea, and to which we can find no clues anywhere on our planet.
Imagine what a hive of ants might think about our morality. And we're on the same planet, both products of the same environment and time-line.

Quote: I would say that any evolved being who has created our universe as an experiment ought to be held to the same code of ethics that it would expect of us- if there is any expectation for us at all.

Only, who is in a position to hold them to that standard? Not us! They must govern themselves. And if they also govern us, how would we know what their expectations were? Is communication possible? Maybe they're working on it. If there ever is communication, it must originate with them - because a creature cannot understand anything more complex than itself, let alone something that many orders more complex.

On the whole, until we hear from them in pidgin or diagrams, i don't think we need to worry about that.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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15-11-2011, 06:06 PM
RE: Is it possible?
(15-11-2011 05:55 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  
(15-11-2011 04:23 PM)kineo Wrote:  In my own arguments against religion I hold the God of the Bible to the same standard of morality that I would hold humanity to.

So do i, and for much the same reason: what we are holding this god to is supposedly his own code of ethics. Since this god is obviously a human construct, what other code could he have? But then, there is quite a bit of variation in social mores from one human culture to another, and changes in the same culture over time, so this xtian god is less intellectually evolved than the modern educated human, and we're probably doing him an injustice, to judge him by the local, current morality, of which we ourselves are a product.


Quote: If this god where simply a being more evolved than us, then the moral standard might not apply.

Simply? Seems to me that an advanced alien is far less simple - to us - than an earth-born god. Aliens would have an entirely different history and culture, of which we have no idea, and to which we can find no clues anywhere on our planet.
Imagine what a hive of ants might think about our morality. And we're on the same planet, both products of the same environment and time-line.

Thank you for the correction- you're right, a being evolved to be advanced enough to initiate such a grand experiment would certainly not be simple. Big Grin

(15-11-2011 05:55 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  
Quote: I would say that any evolved being who has created our universe as an experiment ought to be held to the same code of ethics that it would expect of us- if there is any expectation for us at all.

Only, who is in a position to hold them to that standard? Not us! They must govern themselves. And if they also govern us, how would we know what their expectations were? Is communication possible? Maybe they're working on it. If there ever is communication, it must originate with them - because a creature cannot understand anything more complex than itself, let alone something that many orders more complex.

On the whole, until we hear from them in pidgin or diagrams, i don't think we need to worry about that.

Certainly they would have to hold themselves accountable- presumably it would be beyond our understanding, let alone our capability, to do so.
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15-11-2011, 06:10 PM
RE: Is it possible?
Let's just hope they're too advanced for the magnifying glass trick.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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