Is it possible to feel the delusion?

[morondog]

Put people in a crowd... they look for cues from how the crowd behaves. Explains a lot of it IMO. If there's a crowd and *everyone's* got their hands up and are clearly going nuts for the Lord, the unsure get swept along - it becomes weird *not* to. Other side is, when there's a more restrained congregation there's a lot less likelihood that anyone's gonna break the mood and e.g. start 'speaking in tongues'.

Christianity's had two thousand years of refining the formula. They're *good* at mass delusion.

[Fatbaldhobbit]

(08-02-2016 01:52 PM)musicharmony87 Wrote:  Whenever I am in church, I can feel the delusion. I don't know how I can elaborate more on this. It's like I know this isn't real but all these Christians believe it. Do you ever feel the delusion when anyone talks about God and Jesus?

Do you mean "feel the crazy" or feel like you believe?

Whenever I'm in a church now I feel separated, even alienated. I hear the prayers and the rituals but they mean nothing. The sermons are litanies of misconceptions, half-truths and outright lies.

The worst part is that the people want to stay unknowing. They get upset when questions are asked and when the truth is pointed out.

But if you are referring to an eerie, weird feeling around devout believers, then yeah, I feel it sometimes.

[Chas]

When sitting in a grand building with the sun streaming through the stained glass and hearing moving music, I can feel a sense of awe and feel that there is something greater, likely what others are feeling.

Then my rational mind kicks in and I see that the whole setting is designed to create those emotions.

[unfogged]

(08-02-2016 03:17 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  

(08-02-2016 01:52 PM)musicharmony87 Wrote:  Whenever I am in church, I can feel the delusion. I don't know how I can elaborate more on this. It's like I know this isn't real but all these Christians believe it. Do you ever feel the delusion when anyone talks about God and Jesus?

Do you mean like you cringe inside? It's not that you feel what it is their feeling, but rather an aversion to whatever it is they're responding too?

It isn't an aversion to what they are responding to because what they are responding to is the communal interaction. The problem is taking what, by all available evidence, appears to be a natural reaction to social interaction and ascribing it to a supernatural force for no good reason. The feeling is positive but there is no justification for wrapping it up in layers of mysticism and that misattribution is disquieting.

[Old Man Marsh]

(09-02-2016 06:18 AM)Dom Wrote:  

(08-02-2016 04:08 PM)carol Wrote:  I love learning new things about neurological biology, and I just found a new book online that I ordered from Barnes and Noble. It is called "The Neuroscience of Religious Experience" through Cambridge University Press, (Patrick McNamara) Books are usually well written when Cambridge University Press produces them. I have not read it yet, (It has not come in the mail yet) but from what I have been reading lately , the religious 'feelings" people have may be biochemically based. Neurotheology proponents believe that religious feelings are caused by the 'feel good" brain chemicals we produce and they are trying to trace the brain pathways to see what the religious experience looks like on a scan, or through blood tests, or looking at pulse rate and heart beat for example. I am interested in learning about this myself, so if you find anything interesting please send a link to me. One researcher takes brain scans of people while they are praying, for example. The basic idea is that people produce "feel good" chemcals in response to group activities, like going to an ice hockey game, a concert or listening to people sing and pray as a group in a church. This delusion you are feeling-could it simply be the feelings people get when in a group of people singing, chanting,and getting excited together?

IMO that is where the answer lies.

But - religion is not the only thing triggering the release of "feel good" chemicals, you can get the same from chocolate or jogging or chanting or any number of things.

Feel good chemicals?

[mgoering]

(09-02-2016 06:26 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  

(08-02-2016 07:56 PM)mgoering Wrote:  I wasn't born a Catholic, but became one after marrying my wife. So, I have attended masses, both pre-deconversion and still attend mass post-deconversion. It's amazing how different the experience is.

Before I was intimidated by the whole thing. First, the priest who, I assumed, must be an amazing man by the way the parishioners revered him. Then there was all the rituals of kneeling, genuflecting, crossing yourself with holy water, reciting prayers and creeds etc, etc.

Now I go and I feel like I'm surrounded by a bunch of really gullible people listening to a delusional man reciting nonsense. I have to keep myself amused, so my favorite part is where grown adults are earnestly reading passages from the OT. They have no clue what it means but their voice is solemn and reverent. When done, they take a long pause and say "The word of the Lord". And the whole congregation responds in unison "Thanks be to God" --- It's truly a sad sight to behold.

They didn't have smart phones back when I used to go to church. If I was going now, I would be watching YouTube and Netflix the whole time or sleeping.

Believe me, I tried that. My wife just gave me a big scowl. From then on, I entertain myself by watching the magic show and critiquing it (and it's audience) in my mind. You know, the same thing you might do while watching a pro wrestling match.

As the saying goes, "A happy wife is a happy life". Enduring one hour a week of torture, in the end pays big dividends, if you know what I mean.

[DerFish]

(08-02-2016 04:03 PM)Dom Wrote:  I like going inside the big European cathedrals.

The art is amazing and it's always cool and peaceful. There is a serenity about it. I like that. You can be in the middle of a buzzing city and step into peace and quiet.

I don't see that as delusional though, just amazing architecture.

My father was a Seventh Day Adventist, and he died at 81 years old. When he was 78 I asked him if he had ever been inside the Catholic Cathedral 8 miles from where he had lived for 48 years. He emphatically said NO, and he would not consider the idea, the devil is in charge in there and would not allow my father to leave if he ever entered.

[Dom]

(09-02-2016 10:34 AM)DerFish Wrote:  

(08-02-2016 04:03 PM)Dom Wrote:  I like going inside the big European cathedrals.

The art is amazing and it's always cool and peaceful. There is a serenity about it. I like that. You can be in the middle of a buzzing city and step into peace and quiet.

I don't see that as delusional though, just amazing architecture.

My father was a Seventh Day Adventist, and he died at 81 years old. When he was 78 I asked him if he had ever been inside the Catholic Cathedral 8 miles from where he had lived for 48 years. He emphatically said NO, and he would not consider the idea, the devil is in charge in there and would not allow my father to leave if he ever entered.

The devil that lives there only grabs little boys....

[GirlyMan]

(09-02-2016 07:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  When sitting in a grand building with the sun streaming through the stained glass and hearing moving music, I can feel a sense of awe and feel that there is something greater, likely what others are feeling.

Then my rational mind kicks in and I see that the whole setting is designed to create those emotions.

Does that diminish the experience? Or just put it in proper context?

[Dom]

(09-02-2016 07:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  When sitting in a grand building with the sun streaming through the stained glass and hearing moving music, I can feel a sense of awe and feel that there is something greater, likely what others are feeling.

Then my rational mind kicks in and I see that the whole setting is designed to create those emotions.

Which makes it successful art.