Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
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09-12-2015, 07:21 PM
RE: Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
Anti theism is very broad. Surely that's the whole point for those atheists who abide by it or agree with it.

It's like promoting the beating of a class full of children because one beat up the rest. There are isolated groups yt? hat promote violence due to very warped views. These views didn't come from the one creator God, and they are being deceived. Unfortunately, many Christians, and other religious followers are also deceived in differing manner. This, in no way means that the vast majority of religious followers are prone to violence. The confusion and deceit is lessening daily.

The issue is that those in opposition to global prosperity under God(not atheists necessarily) are aware of the change going on and are doing all they can to speed their agenda. What's fd up is that those responsible, for the most part, don't even realize what they are doing. Deception is everywhere in most cases.

Atheists are special because they have adapted their view to see through a lot of negativity. Unfortunately, some may never pass that initial state of anger and spite towards the deception they came to know in order to realize to what extent they are still being deceived.



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10-12-2015, 07:27 AM
RE: Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
(09-12-2015 12:19 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Or you could spend 5 minutes searching online for a pretty common definition. Like this one:

If you look up the KKKs definition of itself, you’re likely not gonna see them define themselves as a hate group, or racist, or even a bunch of angry white guys.The Tea Parties definition of itself likely won’t include that fact that it’s primarily composed of angry white guys, or representative of conservative white resentment.


If angry white conservative need a place to go, they join the tea party. If angry atheists need to place to go, they join anti-theism. If you want to find the most pugnacious western attitudes toward religion as a whole, surround yourself with a group of anti-theist. When you look at various violent movement to eradicate religion, like that of Reign of Terror, that’s anti-theism.

It might not be the sort of anti-theism you identify with, but your anti-theism seems almost entirely superficial. It seems to involve not much more than a view that religion in total is more harmful than good, but more on the level of smoking, than Nazism. And that people should have the freedom to be religious, just as they should have the freedom to smoke.

The only real difference between you and an apatheist, is that you find religion marginally more harmful than good, and are marginally concerned about that.

Quote:Should I define Christianity by the dudes yelling on street corners or making ridiculous youtube videos? Why should the most outspoken adherents to a belief be representative of them?

That wouldn’t be an apt analogy. Christianity has over 2 billions adherents, who belong to endless variety of subsets. Your analogy might apply if I was making a generalization about atheists. But we’re speak of a subset of atheists. A more accurate analogy would be in regards to the denominations, and subset of Christianity that the dude yelling on the street corner belongs to. That we can say something about him and the subset that he belongs to, even if there is a handful of folks in his church who are a bit milder than him.

Quote:And that's like saying, "if you truly believed in the bible and in Jesus and in heaven and hell you would be out there aggressively proselytizing and never take no for an answer! After-all people's eternal souls are at stake!"

And I think that’s somewhat true. I would think if I thought my wife or kids, or folks I really cared about, were gonna end up in a torture chamber, worse than anything ISIS could imagine, that I’d doing everything in power to prevent that from happening. If I wasn’t than I think people will rightly judge me for not really caring about the lives of my children.

If I thought my son was going to join ISIS, or the KKK, or some violent conservative group, I’d do everything in my power to keep them from doing so, I’m guessing it would be the same for you.

But I’m guessing you don’t particularly see your run of the mill christianity or Islam, as harmful as Nazism? Perhaps as harmful as not believing in the theory of evolution, or climate change, or like smoking, where you might view it as harmful, only marginally so that it’s not worth all that much to bother preventing it?

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10-12-2015, 07:45 AM
RE: Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
(09-12-2015 10:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think people are inclined to feel angry, when they feel they or those who they care about are being harmed by others. And that same principle applies to imagined harms as well. Especially when they're drive to actively do something about it. Hell if I though Atheism was the root of terrorist attacks of my country, I'd be quite angry about Atheism, and those that want to spread it.

Let me just say this one more time, I have a level of antitheism that does not include anger. I can get angry about the violent acts of religion. But I'm more concerned than angry. My antitheism doesn't just cover the reckless and violent forms of religion. I'm also concerned for the "nice theists". I'm concerned for anyone who feels that morality must be linked to a being whose existence is unconfirmed. I'm concerned for anyone who thinks this unconfirmed being has their interests in mind.

(09-12-2015 10:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If you inclined to feel apathetic, you're unlikely to join the anti-theist chorus.

Apathy and anger are not the only two deciding options here.

(09-12-2015 10:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'd wonder how many self identifying anti-theists, don't agree with the overall sentiment expressed here by Greta Christina: "http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2007/10/atheists-and-an.html"

I'm sure by now you've come to terms that no one atheist speaks for all atheists.

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10-12-2015, 09:02 AM
RE: Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
(10-12-2015 07:45 AM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  
(09-12-2015 10:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think people are inclined to feel angry, when they feel they or those who they care about are being harmed by others. And that same principle applies to imagined harms as well. Especially when they're drive to actively do something about it. Hell if I though Atheism was the root of terrorist attacks of my country, I'd be quite angry about Atheism, and those that want to spread it.

Let me just say this one more time, I have a level of antitheism that does not include anger. I can get angry about the violent acts of religion. But I'm more concerned than angry. My antitheism doesn't just cover the reckless and violent forms of religion. I'm also concerned for the "nice theists". I'm concerned for anyone who feels that morality must be linked to a being whose existence is unconfirmed. I'm concerned for anyone who thinks this unconfirmed being has their interests in mind.

(09-12-2015 10:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If you inclined to feel apathetic, you're unlikely to join the anti-theist chorus.

Apathy and anger are not the only two deciding options here.

(09-12-2015 10:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'd wonder how many self identifying anti-theists, don't agree with the overall sentiment expressed here by Greta Christina: "http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2007/10/atheists-and-an.html"

I'm sure by now you've come to terms that no one atheist speaks for all atheists.

"I'm sure by now you've come to terms that no one atheist speaks for all atheists."

He hasn't come to terms with the fact that as a theist, his straw men don't represent atheists.

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10-12-2015, 11:04 AM
RE: Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
(09-12-2015 08:03 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  To be clear; I don't want to be single in my belief and really am curious as to who else believes these things other than the Druze which I have trouble studying, and Bahia.

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10-12-2015, 12:22 PM (This post was last modified: 10-12-2015 12:28 PM by Adrianime.)
RE: Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
(10-12-2015 07:27 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-12-2015 12:19 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Or you could spend 5 minutes searching online for a pretty common definition. Like this one:

If you look up the KKKs definition of itself, you’re likely not gonna see them define themselves as a hate group, or racist, or even a bunch of angry white guys.The Tea Parties definition of itself likely won’t include that fact that it’s primarily composed of angry white guys, or representative of conservative white resentment.


If angry white conservative need a place to go, they join the tea party. If angry atheists need to place to go, they join anti-theism.
Comparing anti-theism to the KKK? Firstly, that's not a valid comparison by any stretch. Second, if you are going to posit "facts" about the KKK, at least back them up with a source or a citation.

Your outlook is very two dimensional. You seem to want to reduce a more complex mindset into "angry white guys". Your obsession with taking the groups you dislike or disagree with and sticking "angry white guys" in front of another label to describe that group is beyond me.
Quote:If you want to find the most pugnacious western attitudes toward religion as a whole, surround yourself with a group of anti-theist.
So you basically just said, "If you want to find the people who will be most likely to argue against religion, then surround yourself with a group of people who think religion is a bad thing." I don't see the point you are making.

Quote:It might not be the sort of anti-theism you identify with, but your anti-theism seems almost entirely superficial. It seems to involve not much more than a view that religion in total is more harmful than good, but more on the level of smoking, than Nazism. And that people should have the freedom to be religious, just as they should have the freedom to smoke. The only real difference between you and an apatheist, is that you find religion marginally more harmful than good, and are marginally concerned about that.
*sigh*, I'm not an anti-theist because I want to be an anti-theist (not that I dislike being an anti-theist). I'm an anti-theist because I am by definition an anti-theist. I read the definition and it just happens to be how I feel. Just because you can't accept that there are chill and reasoned anti-theists doesn't mean they don't exist. My point is, this isn't a "group" I'm joining, it's a characteristic/belief that I have.

Your angry arguments in another context would sound like, "feminists are just angry women."

There is a difference between wanting to see change, and forcing a change. I would very much like religion to disappear, but forcing that change goes against my values and the country I live in. I don't need to force my "way" on others to be passionate about something. There is a huge difference between me and an apatheist, given that I'm not an apatheist. Are you an activist or something? I don't quite understand how you don't get that you don't have to be angry and abrasive to believe something is true, while others disagree.

My motivations for freedom for religion are selfish. I want people to be free to believe because I want to be free to not believe. You can't have it both ways. But I don't say, "it's a good thing that you believe." I think it's a huge waste, and a sad way to live your life. But also, I can't tell people how to live their lives because I don't want anybody telling me how to live mine.

Quote:
Quote:Should I define Christianity by the dudes yelling on street corners or making ridiculous youtube videos? Why should the most outspoken adherents to a belief be representative of them?

That wouldn’t be an apt analogy. Christianity has over 2 billions adherents, who belong to endless variety of subsets. Your analogy might apply if I was making a generalization about atheists. But we’re speak of a subset of atheists. A more accurate analogy would be in regards to the denominations, and subset of Christianity that the dude yelling on the street corner belongs to. That we can say something about him and the subset that he belongs to, even if there is a handful of folks in his church who are a bit milder than him.
Well, if you want to get nit-picky, technically Christianity is not on the same level as atheism. Atheism is at the level of theism. Christianity is a subset of theism. Also technically, anti-theism is not a trait of atheism (as has been covered) but a separate belief that can be held by theists or atheists.

Quote:
Quote:And that's like saying, "if you truly believed in the bible and in Jesus and in heaven and hell you would be out there aggressively proselytizing and never take no for an answer! After-all people's eternal souls are at stake!"

And I think that’s somewhat true. I would think if I thought my wife or kids, or folks I really cared about, were gonna end up in a torture chamber, worse than anything ISIS could imagine, that I’d doing everything in power to prevent that from happening. If I wasn’t than I think people will rightly judge me for not really caring about the lives of my children.

If I thought my son was going to join ISIS, or the KKK, or some violent conservative group, I’d do everything in my power to keep them from doing so, I’m guessing it would be the same for you.

But I’m guessing you don’t particularly see your run of the mill christianity or Islam, as harmful as Nazism? Perhaps as harmful as not believing in the theory of evolution, or climate change, or like smoking, where you might view it as harmful, only marginally so that it’s not worth all that much to bother preventing it?
Okay, so didn't you just admit that my point is correct? If you truly believe in the bible why aren't you angry about those who don't follow your religion? Maybe those you are very close to, but in general you don't care about converting the person you pass in the market.

Sure, I might be bothered if I had children that became religious. But ultimately (again), I value people being free to make their own decisions more than I value them living the way I think is best. Of course assuming their choices aren't causing direct physical harm to others or themselves. Just like I might get upset if my adult child starts smoking, but this emotion is a response of me wanting to protect a person that I care deeply about from something I think is harmful. But again, even in the case of smoking, I'd have to respect autonomy.

At least me letting other people believe what they want doesn't lead to them being eternally tortured like it does from your perspective Tongue

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10-12-2015, 12:48 PM
RE: Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
(09-12-2015 07:21 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Anti theism is very broad. Surely that's the whole point for those atheists who abide by it or agree with it.

It's like promoting the beating of a class full of children because one beat up the rest.

That analogy would hold if the antitheist wants the theists to have the exact same fate visited upon them that the extremists use.

A better analogy would be promoting telling a class to stop rough housing when a handful of them always manage to take it too far and seriously hurt someone. When the ones who haven't hurt anyone (yet?) pipe up that this isn't fair, they're reminded there are other activities they could be doing, and they are encouraging and enabling the more violent among them.

This analogy still leaves open the ability to debate whether or not the kids should have the freedom to roughhouse, weighted against the overall cost of tolerating it.
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10-12-2015, 07:33 PM
RE: Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
(10-12-2015 12:48 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(09-12-2015 07:21 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Anti theism is very broad. Surely that's the whole point for those atheists who abide by it or agree with it.

It's like promoting the beating of a class full of children because one beat up the rest.

That analogy would hold if the antitheist wants the theists to have the exact same fate visited upon them that the extremists use.

A better analogy would be promoting telling a class to stop rough housing when a handful of them always manage to take it too far and seriously hurt someone. When the ones who haven't hurt anyone (yet?) pipe up that this isn't fair, they're reminded there are other activities they could be doing, and they are encouraging and enabling the more violent among them.

This analogy still leaves open the ability to debate whether or not the kids should have the freedom to roughhouse, weighted against the overall cost of tolerating it.
Your opinion on the subject matter sways your thought process. Besides the fact that there is imeasurable potential for the betterment of all and quality of life for all under the direction of the one creator GOD, denying the right to worship is denying a right. A very fundamental one.

Isolation of the particular groups of murderous religious extremists need to be dealt with in a direct manner.

It's never going to stop unless Christians in general stop blaspheming the word of God. The problem is the fact that most Christians tend to believe that repeated sin, or habitual sin, after salvation (something else that is lost on the vast majority) is not only tolerated, but expected.

There are other things that need to be addressed also, but I'm not getting into them here, or now.
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10-12-2015, 08:19 PM
RE: Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
(10-12-2015 07:33 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Your opinion on the subject matter sways your thought process.

And yours doesn't?

Quote:Besides the fact that there is imeasurable potential for the betterment of all and quality of life for all under the direction of the one creator GOD,

The track record for religion in that area doesn't support that belief. It also applies to any dictatorship. You can be for "the betterment of all and quality of life for all" without needing a sky daddy to tell you what is right.

Quote: denying the right to worship is denying a right. A very fundamental one.

It is a right in the US and I don't know anybody trying to deny that right. I do know many working to show people that it is irrational and unnecessary and to stop them from forcing others to live according to their beliefs.

Quote:Isolation of the particular groups of murderous religious extremists need to be dealt with in a direct manner.

Murderous extremists need to be dealt with, religious or not.

Quote:It's never going to stop unless Christians in general stop blaspheming the word of God. The problem is the fact that most Christians tend to believe that repeated sin, or habitual sin, after salvation (something else that is lost on the vast majority) is not only tolerated, but expected.

There are other things that need to be addressed also, but I'm not getting into them here, or now.

Good, that was more than enough unsupported woo for now.

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10-12-2015, 09:29 PM
RE: Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
Unforced,

My opinion isn't too biased about others. Neither are my thoughts regarding different religions or sects of religions. There are things that I don't agree with constantly, literally.

It doesn't sway my opinion.

The track record for religion has little to do with real direction under God by listening to and acting on the selfless conscience that all have.

The Qur'an doesn't really promote murder anyway. Your point about murderers being of all walks wasn't really with making from your potential angle, but duelly noted.

Anyone can pretend to be for the betterment of all at all times, but without being as selfless as humanly possible, and following what you know is right, not for self, but the situation, then you are only fooling yourself. What you don't get or accept is that a creative force made us all. And in us all he placed a conscience. This conscience is the base connection we all have to God on some level.

Your also right about forcing people to believe or not believe. That is a type of discrimination, and prejudice, and not cool.
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