Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
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03-12-2015, 04:02 PM
RE: Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
(03-12-2015 03:31 PM)wallym Wrote:  
(03-12-2015 03:05 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Do you think this actually works? And based on any formulated type of reasoning? I think it's the type of thing someone says seems like common sense, but it doesn't hold to scrutiny when you examine groups of peoples minds and what drives their actions. There's reasons why these linked groups of struggles are tied together.

I think others may disagree with you because there isn't a reason to believe it would work, because of constant evidence of it not working. People flock into many religious or cultish groups due to traumatic situations when they're forced to deal with grave thoughts highly. Normally, day to day even when in distressful times, you folks don't spend the time thinking of hellish/heavenly consequences for that to actually motivate them.

I think manipulating poor people with religion is a pretty battle tested strategy with a few millennium's worth of successes.

Does it work in poor neighborhoods? The pastors and evangelists certainly get their tithes/donations from people without money to spare.

Or maybe you are just asking if the religion is doing any good? Anecdotally, it seems like when violent poor people try to turn things around, religion is something they are often crediting. Because a big part of coping with a terrible reality is pretending that it isn't that terrible. Religion is a solid way to do that.

Being manipulated to give money to the church... that's about it? There is a correlation to poor & religious, part of it is religion can keep people poor by it's claims & tithing claims or sometimes, it literally encourages the suffering as it will gift an award in the post life. Still, this doesn't relate to the idea brought up before about bettering the place and mentality of the people.

That is not any connection to the concept of them being doing more "right" or being better folks for society than a poor person who isn't indoctrinated or told to believe in some post-life motivation.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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03-12-2015, 04:50 PM
RE: Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
(03-12-2015 04:02 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(03-12-2015 03:31 PM)wallym Wrote:  I think manipulating poor people with religion is a pretty battle tested strategy with a few millennium's worth of successes.

Does it work in poor neighborhoods? The pastors and evangelists certainly get their tithes/donations from people without money to spare.

Or maybe you are just asking if the religion is doing any good? Anecdotally, it seems like when violent poor people try to turn things around, religion is something they are often crediting. Because a big part of coping with a terrible reality is pretending that it isn't that terrible. Religion is a solid way to do that.

Being manipulated to give money to the church... that's about it? There is a correlation to poor & religious, part of it is religion can keep people poor by it's claims & tithing claims or sometimes, it literally encourages the suffering as it will gift an award in the post life. Still, this doesn't relate to the idea brought up before about bettering the place and mentality of the people.

That is not any connection to the concept of them being doing more "right" or being better folks for society than a poor person who isn't indoctrinated or told to believe in some post-life motivation.


They're also manipulated for political gain, and fight our wars. But I see what you are saying. I think the problem we have with this discussion is that the poor are so overwhelmingly religious since forever it's hard to show what they would look like if they weren't.

I think the reality for many, is that it's a hopeless awful existence occurring right next to my town, where we are sitting in our nice homes chatting comfortably on the internet about them. I don't want them thinking about that.

I think muddying the waters with a boatload of Christianity has to help keep them distracted, no? Tricking them into thinking their situation is better than it is? Maybe not. But a lot of them talk like that's the case.

If you have a better way to distract them, I'm on board with that as well. I don't have any affinity to religion as the tool, it just, as I said before, seems to have been used to keep the poor populations docile for thousands of years, and I'm not crazy about taking it away and hoping for the best.

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03-12-2015, 04:59 PM
RE: Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
Nah. Sounds boring as all fuck.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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03-12-2015, 05:52 PM
RE: Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
(03-12-2015 03:45 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  I have the feeling this is one of the ways many religions started. By telling the masses there's more that will come later. The problem remains with the ones who still use it as a tool.

Wouldn't it make more sense to educate people so they have the mental ability to solve problems in the here and now?

Educating some people is hard. Probably impossible.

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03-12-2015, 05:58 PM
RE: Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
(03-12-2015 03:40 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(03-12-2015 03:31 PM)wallym Wrote:  I think manipulating poor people with religion is a pretty battle tested strategy with a few millennium's worth of successes.

Does it work in poor neighborhoods? The pastors and evangelists certainly get their tithes/donations from people without money to spare.

Or maybe you are just asking if the religion is doing any good? Anecdotally, it seems like when violent poor people try to turn things around, religion is something they are often crediting. Because a big part of coping with a terrible reality is pretending that it isn't that terrible. Religion is a solid way to do that.

The fact that a lot of people pay a few clerics is not evidence that religion does anything. Your "Utilitarian" philosophy is a slippery slope.
Going to church provides a momentary "feel good" (singing raises your blood pressure) ... just like the movies, but with all sorts of additional down-sides.

An important distinction, is that I'm not interested in what they get out of this. I'm interested in what I get out of this.

Let's imagine I illegally stream movies.
Despite my doing so, I'd still want everyone else to still pay for the movies, otherwise the movies won't get made, and I wouldn't get to watch them.

That's how I feel about religion. I'm all the way down the rabbit hole with atheism. But I don't want company. Other people like me are bad for me. I like good god-fearing Christians, because too many people like me would ruin things for me.

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03-12-2015, 06:04 PM
RE: Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
(03-12-2015 05:58 PM)wallym Wrote:  
(03-12-2015 03:40 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The fact that a lot of people pay a few clerics is not evidence that religion does anything. Your "Utilitarian" philosophy is a slippery slope.
Going to church provides a momentary "feel good" (singing raises your blood pressure) ... just like the movies, but with all sorts of additional down-sides.

An important distinction, is that I'm not interested in what they get out of this. I'm interested in what I get out of this.

Let's imagine I illegally stream movies.
Despite my doing so, I'd still want everyone else to still pay for the movies, otherwise the movies won't get made, and I wouldn't get to watch them.

That's how I feel about religion. I'm all the way down the rabbit hole with atheism. But I don't want company. Other people like me are bad for me. I like good god-fearing Christians, because too many people like me would ruin things for me.

Sorry you have such a poor self-image.

By your theory, everyone who exhibits 'certain behaviors' and tendencies should be medicated also.

*Delusion is not good for me, but it is for everyone I know* Consider

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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03-12-2015, 06:16 PM
RE: Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
(03-12-2015 11:45 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(03-12-2015 11:38 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I still don't know what it means. Goodevil

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitheism
Quote:The Oxford English Dictionary defines antitheist as "One opposed to belief in the existence of a god". The earliest citation given for this meaning dates from 1833.[1] An antitheist may oppose belief in the existence of any god or gods, and not merely one in particular.

Antitheism has been adopted as a label by those who regard theism as dangerous or destructive. Christopher Hitchens offers an example of this approach in Letters to a Young Contrarian (2001), in which he writes: "I'm not even an atheist so much as I am an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful."[2]

By that definition, I'm an antitheist, and have been for decades. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-12-2015, 06:21 PM
RE: Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
(03-12-2015 06:04 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(03-12-2015 05:58 PM)wallym Wrote:  An important distinction, is that I'm not interested in what they get out of this. I'm interested in what I get out of this.

Let's imagine I illegally stream movies.
Despite my doing so, I'd still want everyone else to still pay for the movies, otherwise the movies won't get made, and I wouldn't get to watch them.

That's how I feel about religion. I'm all the way down the rabbit hole with atheism. But I don't want company. Other people like me are bad for me. I like good god-fearing Christians, because too many people like me would ruin things for me.

Sorry you have such a poor self-image.

By your theory, everyone who exhibits 'certain behaviors' and tendencies should be medicated also.

*Delusion is not good for me, but it is for everyone I know* Consider

It's not that I think delusion is good for other people. I think delusion for other people is good for me.

That being said, I wouldn't mind to add a little delusion back into my life. Sort of like that guy in the Matrix who wants to get plugged back in. I think generic humanist has a nice reward system without too much cost. Post a couple things on facebook, act outraged with friends, pat yourself on the back, and call it a day. That seems like it'd be nice.

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03-12-2015, 06:31 PM
RE: Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
(03-12-2015 06:21 PM)wallym Wrote:  It's not that I think delusion is good for other people. I think delusion for other people is good for me.
You're weird. Tongue

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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03-12-2015, 06:34 PM
RE: Is it time for you to become Anti-theist?
(03-12-2015 05:52 PM)wallym Wrote:  Educating some people is hard. Probably impossible.

I don't think you're quite getting what I was aiming for.
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