Is it wrong to eat meat?
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28-01-2017, 09:40 AM
RE: Is it wrong to eat meat?
(27-01-2017 10:31 PM)Aractus Wrote:  
(26-01-2017 03:37 AM)Praying Birds Wrote:  First things first: Yet I think it is actually wrong to eat meat I do it myself and I wont judge anyone who does.

...
Yet - as I said - I consume meat myself and I think I am just to weak to become a vegetarian (veganism is a different matter). But I do not try to be perfectly good. By trying to be perfectly good you could not even kill a spider in your house or else...

Whatd do you think? What do you think about my points? Do you consume meat? Do you think it is right/wrong and why? Are there any other good arguments against the consumption of meat you want to share?

I am qualified to practise as a nutritionist, which is not something I'm particularly interested in doing at this time though. Anyway, humans do need meat - that's not an opinion, it's evidence-based fact. Consider it this way, most of the intelligent mammals eat meat - humans, dolphins, other great apes, etc. Plants provide far less nutrition, this video explains quite well why Koalas are so stupid:





They eat just one type of food that is very difficult to digest, and provides shockingly little nutrition. Further information on their blatant stupidity is here. Horses, Cattle, and Sheep are not particularly intelligent creatures. Rats, mice, cats, and dogs are all considered quite intelligent, and crows are considered highly intelligent. Elephants are one of the few relatively intelligent species that are herbivores.

Anyway back to evidence, I'd say it's really in the last 15 years or so that clear evidence has come forward showing that a vegetarian diet is deficient for humans long-term. And that's to do with the research pertaining to the previously unknown roles that micro-nutrients have in the body, and also the bioavailability (i.e. absorbability) of micro-nutrients in plants being much lower than the same nutrients in animal products.

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29-01-2017, 09:17 AM (This post was last modified: 30-01-2017 12:22 AM by Aractus.)
RE: Is it wrong to eat meat?
This post is moved verbatim from the other thread.

(edit) Also, I do not want to disrupt that thread any further so please direct all complains about this post or any other related to it to: aractus@msn.com

(28-01-2017 08:41 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I actually did consider the evidence on a vegan diet and looked at various studies (I can provide them for you if you like). I also go to a nutritionist/dietitian who specializes in vegan nutrition and wellness.

Nutritionists are generally expected to work within their client's preferences - even if their clients refuse to eat whole food groups. If they refuse to practice that way they could be dropped from NSA (or the equivalent Nutrition Society in your country).

Quote:I read your post in the meat thread. The studies that have said anything "bad" about a vegan diet usually say that the diet was low in a certain amount of nutrients. All of which can be remedied by taking supplements.

Any decent nutritionist will tell you dietary supplements are considered a last resort. It's very difficult to find and recognise good quality supplements in the first place, without laboratory tests. I actually would not know where to start, and if you need to take a supplement I'd point you to a practising nutritionist that has lab information on-hand.

The most common nutrient deficiency in Australia is iron deficiency in women. Without animal products or supplementation it can be impossible to meet iron needs, even if eating iron-fortified bread and cereal daily. When it comes to supplements, many people find them unpleasant to take, and can find it difficult to find one that they can take. We also know nutrient absorption form all types of supplements is significantly lower (with the exception of B12) than from natural food sources, meaning if you need 18mg of iron per day from meat, then you'll need more than that from a supplement. And how much you need will be different to other people, so you might only need 9mg of iron per day for example, while another female your age might need 18mg, a small number of people will even need more.

So supplementation is far from a simple thing, it needs to be individually designed for people to meet their specific needs. If you just go and buy supplements off the shelf you'll be doing yourself more harm than good.

Quote:I agree, if you don't take supplements--and some vegans don't--you could potentially put yourself at risk. There are also health benefits to a vegan diet--it lowers blood sugar levels, can improve kidney function, there's been evidence to suggest that it protects against certain cancers, lower risk of heart disease, can reduce inflammation of joints, etc.

That is evidence is how they designed AGTHE/MyPlate etc. One evidence document for AGTHE is here, I'll give you some examples from it:
  • "Consumption of at least two serves a week (of fish) is associated with reduced risk of mortality from cardiovascular disease, and with reduced incidence of cardiovascular disease." - Grade C evidence (Good evidence)
  • "Consumption of fish more than once per week is associated with a reduced risk of developing dementia in older adults." - Grade B evidence (Very good evidence)

DASH is also designed this way (evidence-based). There is no vegan diet that has been designed around the evidence, and that's what I mean by the evidence base.

I'll actually give you one more example:
  • "Compared to infants who are formula fed, being breastfed is associated with reduced risk of becoming obese in childhood, adolescence, and early adulthood." - Grade A evidence (Excellent evidence).

You might already know that, but look at what people find out when they "investigate the evidence for themselves":





That's a video I saw a while ago, and what she's saying is shockingly wrong. You can ask a practising nutritionist if you don't believe me, but soy formula is designed primarily for infants that have an allergy to cow's milk and need formula because breastmilk is unavailable, it's not designed for people to raise their infants vegan. But unfortunately people do that.

Quote:I really don't feel like getting into a debate about this 'cause I'm kinda done with it. But I am more than willing to provide you with studies that I've read if you would like them. But beyond that, I would like to leave it at that.

By all means post the studies you have read. I'm not trying to insult you at all, I'd much rather have a civilised dialogue. Most people have very strongly held beliefs about food that differ from the evidence, and I don't think, know, or care whether I'm right or wrong, which is what I said on AF back in 2014. I only care about evidence-based practise. According to one of my lecturers, only about 20% of clinicians follow evidence-based practise (they are in fact often very sceptical and critical of new evidence)! A vegan diet is simply not built off evidence-based practise, omega3 fatty acids in fish is a good example of where we have very good or excellent quality evidence (I can't remember off hand) for some of their protective health benefits, but no one has yet shown that an omega3 supplement will give you the same health benefit.

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29-01-2017, 09:59 AM
RE: Is it wrong to eat meat?
I love all animals (the ones that can kill me I will appreciate from a safe distance) and whilst its convenient for me to not have to kill anything, but rather just pick up the finished article off a shelf, ill consume meat.

If I had to kill my own animals, skin, gut and prepare them. I wouldn't do it.

When the hunger kicks in and im desperate enough to survive. Then the cosy, soft and convenient ways that society has raised me, i imagine will slip away and all of the fluffy and cute animals will just look like quick, easy and convenient meals, that take little to no time to catch, compared to fruit and vegetables.

For bigger animals, ill probably have to join a pack of other humans, but the risk vs reward will be worth it if I dont get mauled/scratched/bitten myself.

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29-01-2017, 10:12 AM
RE: Is it wrong to eat meat?
How else would I gain an animal's powers? Some fucking shamanic dance?

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

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29-01-2017, 10:13 AM
RE: Is it wrong to eat meat?
(29-01-2017 09:17 AM)Aractus Wrote:  This post is moved verbatim from the other thread.

(28-01-2017 08:41 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I actually did consider the evidence on a vegan diet and looked at various studies (I can provide them for you if you like). I also go to a nutritionist/dietitian who specializes in vegan nutrition and wellness.

Nutritionists are generally expected to work within their client's preferences - even if their clients refuse to eat whole food groups. If they refuse to practice that way they could be dropped from NSA (or the equivalent Nutrition Society in your country).

Quote:I read your post in the meat thread. The studies that have said anything "bad" about a vegan diet usually say that the diet was low in a certain amount of nutrients. All of which can be remedied by taking supplements.

Any decent nutritionist will tell you dietary supplements are considered a last resort. It's very difficult to find and recognise good quality supplements in the first place, without laboratory tests. I actually would not know where to start, and if you need to take a supplement I'd point you to a practising nutritionist that has lab information on-hand.

The most common nutrient deficiency in Australia is iron deficiency in women. Without animal products or supplementation it can be impossible to meet iron needs, even if eating iron-fortified bread and cereal daily. When it comes to supplements, many people find them unpleasant to take, and can find it difficult to find one that they can take. We also know nutrient absorption form all types of supplements is significantly lower (with the exception of B12) than from natural food sources, meaning if you need 18mg of iron per day from meat, then you'll need more than that from a supplement. And how much you need will be different to other people, so you might only need 9mg of iron per day for example, while another female your age might need 18mg, a small number of people will even need more.

So supplementation is far from a simple thing, it needs to be individually designed for people to meet their specific needs. If you just go and buy supplements off the shelf you'll be doing yourself more harm than good.

Quote:I agree, if you don't take supplements--and some vegans don't--you could potentially put yourself at risk. There are also health benefits to a vegan diet--it lowers blood sugar levels, can improve kidney function, there's been evidence to suggest that it protects against certain cancers, lower risk of heart disease, can reduce inflammation of joints, etc.

That is evidence is how they designed AGTHE/MyPlate etc. One evidence document for AGTHE is here, I'll give you some examples from it:
  • "Consumption of at least two serves a week (of fish) is associated with reduced risk of mortality from cardiovascular disease, and with reduced incidence of cardiovascular disease." - Grade C evidence (Good evidence)
  • "Consumption of fish more than once per week is associated with a reduced risk of developing dementia in older adults." - Grade B evidence (Very good evidence)

DASH is also designed this way (evidence-based). There is no vegan diet that has been designed around the evidence, and that's what I mean by the evidence base.

I'll actually give you one more example:
  • "Compared to infants who are formula fed, being breastfed is associated with reduced risk of becoming obese in childhood, adolescence, and early adulthood." - Grade A evidence (Excellent evidence).

You might already know that, but look at what people find out when they "investigate the evidence for themselves":





That's a video I saw a while ago, and what she's saying is shockingly wrong. You can ask a practising nutritionist if you don't believe me, but soy formula is designed primarily for infants that have an allergy to cow's milk and need formula because breastmilk is unavailable, it's not designed for people to raise their infants vegan. But unfortunately people do that.

Quote:I really don't feel like getting into a debate about this 'cause I'm kinda done with it. But I am more than willing to provide you with studies that I've read if you would like them. But beyond that, I would like to leave it at that.

By all means post the studies you have read. I'm not trying to insult you at all, I'd much rather have a civilised dialogue. Most people have very strongly held beliefs about food that differ from the evidence, and I don't think, know, or care whether I'm right or wrong, which is what I said on AF back in 2014. I only care about evidence-based practise. According to one of my lecturers, only about 20% of clinicians follow evidence-based practise (they are in fact often very sceptical and critical of new evidence)! A vegan diet is simply not built off evidence-based practise, omega3 fatty acids in fish is a good example of where we have very good or excellent quality evidence (I can't remember off hand) for some of their protective health benefits, but no one has yet shown that an omega3 supplement will give you the same health benefit.

So, whaddaya think of cholesterol? I am conflicted about it, some studies seem to discount it's importance.

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29-01-2017, 10:14 AM
RE: Is it wrong to eat meat?
(29-01-2017 10:12 AM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  How else would I gain an animal's powers? Some fucking shamanic dance?

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29-01-2017, 08:02 PM
RE: Is it wrong to eat meat?
(29-01-2017 09:38 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  For essential dietary requirements I agree, but there are supplements used for other purposes than nutrition (nootropics for example) and many of those do not occur naturally at all.

Well, Thiamine certainly does appear naturally. There are also sports supplements, which are designed to improve performance or gain, etc. They don't necessarily make you healthy though, and that's one of the things about extreme sports is you can end up with people that have a risk of mortality as high or higher than the obese population!

Quote:Why is it difficult? You start with those distributors and suppliers who provide independent COAs for all of their ingredients. A reputable supplier is happy to show you the results of the independent laboratory tests (especially since that's the main reason you're paying them a premium).

Lab tests from a manufacturer don't mean anything. I'm surprised you would trust them. Products that will actually get certified for use in Sports for example require require pretty much a random sample from every batch of the products to be tested, not just one batch tested. Also, lab tests that check for conformity with the packet don't tell you whether they've used quality (i.e. bioavailable) forms of the supplements, nor whether that supplements are formulated well. Every single multivitamin sold in an Australian supermarket appears to be poorly formulated in my opinion, and that's before we even get into those other problems.

Quote:Don't think that's true.

Well it is true. And not only are the supplements usually less bioavailable than food sources, but they cause problems with absorption of other nutrients from food. If we use my example of Iron you can see that:

"Dietary intake of iron at levels found in some supplements can decrease zinc absorption, which is of particular concern in the management of pregnancy and lactation." - NHMRC.

People generally treat supplements like food, whereas most nutritionists and dieticians would prefer they treat them like medication. A really big problem with Iron supplements is childhood toxicity and it happens because children even as young as toddlers see their parents or older siblings taking the supplements and then take it upon themselves to take them too. And it's a very common problem:

"Iron poisoning is a common toxicologic emergency in young children. Contributing factors include the availability of iron tablets and their candylike appearance. Ferrous sulfate tablets (20% elemental iron) are routinely administered to postpartum women, many of whom have toddlers in the family."

It is certainly true that many people need dietary supplements, even when eating what nutritionists believe to be their most ideal diets. But they are also a very big problem when not used in conjunction with evidence-based practise ideally overseen by a dietician, a nutritionist, or a physician.

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29-01-2017, 08:48 PM
RE: Is it wrong to eat meat?
(29-01-2017 10:12 AM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  How else would I gain an animal's powers? Some fucking shamanic dance?

Forget the superstition. If you want an animal's DNA, the only way is to get them to impregnate you.

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29-01-2017, 09:20 PM
RE: Is it wrong to eat meat?
(26-01-2017 04:58 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  My cow loves me.
Have a nice day.
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God made cows to be sacrificed, not to be eaten!
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29-01-2017, 09:25 PM
RE: Is it wrong to eat meat?
(26-01-2017 08:40 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(26-01-2017 03:37 AM)Praying Birds Wrote:  First things first: Yet I think it is actually wrong to eat meat I do it myself and I wont judge anyone who does.

I thought about this matter a couple of times and I found a very simple but also very strong argument against the consumption of meat.

Even though the animal you eat would kill you and possibly eat you at any given moment it had a chance and the possibility to it's wrong to eat meat. By that I mean that the only reason a cow doesn't kill and eat you is because its teeth and its anatomy are not built for killing and consuming meat. Yet its healthy instinct (like in every other being including humans) says it should survive at any cost and use any energy source it can find and process.

Humans also have this instinct but it got overlapped by the rational mind and some sort of free will (no matter whether actual free will exists). This creates the possibility to chose.

And the choice is very simple.

Why would you in the situation of choice between a higher standing and a lower standing being decide to eat the higher standing? Because it tastes better? That is just hilarious and primitive.

By choosing to act as a being unlike an animal you actually should refuse to consume meat.

Yet - as I said - I consume meat myself and I think I am just to weak to become a vegetarian (veganism is a different matter). But I do not try to be perfectly good. By trying to be perfectly good you could not even kill a spider in your house or else...

Whatd do you think? What do you think about my points? Do you consume meat? Do you think it is right/wrong and why? Are there any other good arguments against the consumption of meat you want to share?


Have a nice day!


[ Censored ] bless! Wink

I'd also add it's not a weakness that you eat or like the taste of meat and yet want to be vegetarian, especially if you were raised in a culture that eats a lot of meat. If you were raised in a vegetarian culture, for instance, I would think your cravings for various foods would be different.

If you want to become a vegetarian, I would recommend doing it slowly. Maybe one meal a week, then add another and another. My bf consumes meat but also has a vegetarian meal a few times a week and where he can make easy changes, he opts for vegetarian items instead of meat ingredient items.

Often people think things need to be an all or nothing. Why not incorporate both into your diet: Do a few veggie meals here and there and make easy changes from meat items to vegetarian items if you can. For example, my bf uses earth balance (vegan margarine) and gave up his regular butter.

Are you saying that anyone thinks that margarine is better than butter? I don't think so!
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