Is logic a panacea?
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18-02-2013, 09:24 AM
RE: Is logic a panacea?
(18-02-2013 09:19 AM)Vera Wrote:  'Course it wasn't. You got a pretty mushroom and the awesomest pyrotechnics ever. And after all, who doesn't love a mighty bang. What's not to like. Dodgy
I said "If you believe that [...]" on purpose 'cause I ain't bloody thinking that the end justifies the means. There was nothing good about what happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

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18-02-2013, 09:32 AM
RE: Is logic a panacea?
(18-02-2013 09:24 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(18-02-2013 09:19 AM)Vera Wrote:  'Course it wasn't. You got a pretty mushroom and the awesomest pyrotechnics ever. And after all, who doesn't love a mighty bang. What's not to like. Dodgy
I said "If you believe that [...]" on purpose 'cause I ain't bloody thinking that the end justifies the means. There was nothing good about what happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Except the hundreds of thousands or millions of lives that it saved.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-02-2013, 09:43 AM
RE: Is logic a panacea?
(18-02-2013 09:24 AM)Vosur Wrote:  I said "If you believe that [...]" on purpose 'cause I ain't bloody thinking that the end justifies the means. There was nothing good about what happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Yo, efficient one. Unless you see me post this never assume I'm being serious. Actually, never assume I'm being serious. Period. Drinking Beverage

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18-02-2013, 09:45 AM
RE: Is logic a panacea?
(18-02-2013 09:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  Except the hundreds of thousands or millions of lives that it saved.
Can you demonstrate this to be true, that Japan wouldn't have surrendered if the USA didn't use nuclear bombs on civilians? Do you seriously believe that there was no other way to solve this problem?

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18-02-2013, 09:47 AM
RE: Is logic a panacea?
(18-02-2013 09:43 AM)Vera Wrote:  Yo, efficient one. Unless you see me post this never assume I'm being serious. Actually, never assume I'm being serious. Period. Drinking Beverage
I know that you were being sarcastic, that's why I responded the way I did.

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18-02-2013, 09:48 AM
RE: Is logic a panacea?
(18-02-2013 09:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-02-2013 09:24 AM)Vosur Wrote:  I said "If you believe that [...]" on purpose 'cause I ain't bloody thinking that the end justifies the means. There was nothing good about what happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Except the hundreds of thousands or millions of lives that it saved.
Exactly, my morality is based on "minimizing harm" with the available evidence.

Im not saying it was an easy decision, it was one made "between a rock and a hard place". The death of the people were obviously bad, yet how many more people could have died if it continued? Would have USSR and USA, went to war with out the deterrent, probably. Basing this a lot on hindsight, but the outcome would have been worse if it didnt happen that way, in my opinion.

Arguing with a Christian is a lot like playing chess with a pigeon. You can be the greatest player in the world, yet the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, shit on the board and strut away triumphantly.
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18-02-2013, 10:42 AM (This post was last modified: 18-02-2013 10:45 AM by kim.)
RE: Is logic a panacea?
Logic is a tool. If one wields a tool without reason and compassion, one may become a tool as well. Hmm... pun not intended but, yea.

Logic itself can become twisted and exploited just like anything else. Without reason, without temper of compassion, without clear regard for humanity in general, logic can coalesce to part of a power-ravenous agenda.

No one seems to want to claim Hitler to be the mirror of humanity when in reality, he was quite certainly a reflection of a certain portion of ourselves. To a great many people he/his ideology seemed the very logical step toward the greater good. This ideology was completely devoid of humanity. Yet, stunning unbelievability was overrun by great masses who were quick to fuse an unethical ideology beyond reason, into a twisted concept of mercy killing; it seemed logical at the time but they too, were used.

Exploitation can turn a simple tool into quite a horrific weapon. A hammer is a simple tool which drives nails but has certainly been used to murder.

Logic is a tool; handy and precise but only useful for the one thing it does. Logic alone is never resolute it's only a starting place for a humane dialogue.

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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18-02-2013, 05:06 PM
RE: Is logic a panacea?
I would add to this that logic,along with all of the fallacies, even here often based on shaky notions of an initial absolute truth, along with error, desire to deceive,highly questionable values, empowerment,human frailty, manipulation, and other devious ploys, can detract from genuinely humane science by clever and corrupt argument.

Conversely logic can be used in quite the opposite way and for the good.

What is often difficult,as a result of the great diversity of human opinion, is to ascertain the best high ground to adopt as the over riding initial premise, when utilizing logic to present a constructively worthwhile argument.
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18-02-2013, 05:18 PM (This post was last modified: 18-02-2013 11:24 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Is logic a panacea?
(18-02-2013 05:06 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  I would add to this that logic,along with all of the fallacies, even here often based on shaky notions of an initial absolute truth, along with error, desire to deceive,highly questionable values, empowerment,human frailty, manipulation, and other devious ploys, can detract from genuinely humane science by clever and corrupt argument.

Conversely logic can be used in quite the opposite way and for the good.

What is often difficult,as a result of the great diversity of human opinion, is to ascertain the best high ground to adopt as the over riding initial premise, when utilizing logic to present a constructively worthwhile argument.
While both of these tools can be used for anything one wishes, ultimately it's up to individuals coming together to make ethical codes to govern these things.

That's why I posted the links to the wikipedia articles. It was after World War 2, movements by animal rights activists, and other groups that bioethics was born. To treat life with respect, and reduce suffering in tests as much as possible.

The application of science is also an area of ethics, and different ethical systems can be used to evaluate the application of knowledge and logic.

A full description of ethics, and different ethical methods are listed here -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroethics

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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18-02-2013, 05:40 PM
RE: Is logic a panacea?
Gonna use a bit of Robert Anton Wilson...

Quote:Now, quantum mechanics is just like that, except that in the case of Santa Cruz, Capitola, and Live Oak, we don't get too confused, because, remember, we invented the lines on the map. Quantum physics seems confusing because a lot of people believe we didn't invent the lines, so it seems hard to understand how a particle can be in three places at the same time without being anywhere at all. But when you remember that we invented all of the boundaries, borders and lines, just like the Berlin Wall, then quantum mechanics is no more mysterious than the fact that I live in three places at the same time.

I see everything we do as both the medicine and the poison (depending on how you apply it) Everything we have collectively experienced we have given names to. We are limited to only understanding how everything "works" from our own viewpoint as a species.

I think the universe would observe us and simply say............

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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