Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
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22-07-2013, 09:16 AM
RE: Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
CE - we differentiate many things that are the same simply because they have a different pattern of perceived order or they exhibit slightly different attributes.
The opposite is also true. We also classify things with the same name that are in fact not identical.

Snowflakes - These two hypothetical snowflakes are different in appearance and probably ever so slightly chemical makeup due to the nature of all the other stuff in a droplet of water, but yet are they not the same ? Both have the same name - Snowflake - therefore they must be exactly the same in every detail ? Well, no.

We name things based on similar characteristics that fall within a general and something very specific definition.
You say that the words matter and energy are different, therefore they must be different things.

Red & Blue are different words and yet both are light.
Red light is of lower frequency, lower energy and longer wavelength.
Blue light is of higher frequency, higher energy and shorter wavelength.

When it comes to matter we get into all sorts of fun stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter

In other words, matter isn't what you think it is

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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22-07-2013, 09:29 AM
RE: Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
(22-07-2013 08:56 AM)childeye Wrote:  Okay, what matter existed before the universe was formed?

Okay. What energy existed before the universe was formed?

Both have the same answer.

That answer, by the way, is "the question doesn't make sense".

Energy and matter are different (human-defined) ways of categorizing the interaction of parts of the universe with other parts.

Note that such a definition is explicitly dependent on the existence of the universe. No universe -> no energy or matter as we define and observe them.

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22-07-2013, 09:34 AM
RE: Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
(22-07-2013 09:16 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  CE - we differentiate many things that are the same simply because they have a different pattern of perceived order or they exhibit slightly different attributes.
The opposite is also true. We also classify things with the same name that are in fact not identical.

Snowflakes - These two hypothetical snowflakes are different in appearance and probably ever so slightly chemical makeup due to the nature of all the other stuff in a droplet of water, but yet are they not the same ? Both have the same name - Snowflake - therefore they must be exactly the same in every detail ? Well, no.

We name things based on similar characteristics that fall within a general and something very specific definition.
I can easily agree with what you say as a well reasoned assessment.
Quote:You say that the words matter and energy are different, therefore they must be different things.
Not exactly. I simply recognize that motion is not matter while matter and motion as well as everything in creation is energy in some form.

Quote:Red & Blue are different words and yet both are light.
Red light is of lower frequency, lower energy and longer wavelength.
Blue light is of higher frequency, higher energy and shorter wavelength.

When it comes to matter we get into all sorts of fun stuff.
Yes it is fun and fascinating.


Quote:In other words, matter isn't what you think it is.
When I think of matter, I envision all the physical substance that occupies space from the smallest particle to the largest composite.
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22-07-2013, 09:54 AM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2013 10:01 AM by childeye.)
RE: Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
(22-07-2013 09:29 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(22-07-2013 08:56 AM)childeye Wrote:  Okay, what matter existed before the universe was formed?

Okay. What energy existed before the universe was formed?

Both have the same answer.
I must remark, you have not given any answer.

Quote:That answer, by the way, is "the question doesn't make sense".
The question makes perfect sense to me. It is the logical response to you're implying energy did not come before matter in the forming of the universe. Something doesn't come out of nothing is a logical assertion. Matter formed out of energy because we can measure that energy and even release it and use it in other forms. Oil runs our engines as we burn it to create energy.

Quote:Energy and matter are different (human-defined) ways of categorizing the interaction of parts of the universe with other parts.
This is well said and all I have been saying.

Quote:Note that such a definition is explicitly dependent on the existence of the universe. No universe -> no energy or matter as we define and observe them.
Note that assuming something doesn't come out of nothing, there was something apart from what we call the universe.
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22-07-2013, 09:57 AM
RE: Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
(22-07-2013 09:08 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(22-07-2013 08:54 AM)childeye Wrote:  Children sometimes say the darnedest things.

Yeah, but other times they say the dumbest things. You must have been the really, really dumb child.

Relatively speaking, I'm sure you're correct.
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22-07-2013, 10:14 AM
RE: Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
(22-07-2013 09:54 AM)childeye Wrote:  I must remark, you have not given any answer.

Wait, what?
(22-07-2013 09:29 AM)cjlr Wrote:  That answer, by the way, is "the question doesn't make sense".

(22-07-2013 09:54 AM)childeye Wrote:  The question makes perfect sense to me. It is the logical response to your implying energy did not come before matter in the forming of the universe.

I didn't imply that. You inferred it. Energy as we define and understand it is a consequence of the existence of the universe as we define and understand it. Whatever may or may not have existed prior to the universe as we define and understand it was then, necessarily and by definition, not the same thing as what we observe within the universe. This is not a complicated idea.

(22-07-2013 09:54 AM)childeye Wrote:  Something doesn't come out of nothing is a logical assertion.

Indeed. Is God something?

(22-07-2013 09:54 AM)childeye Wrote:  Matter formed out of energy because we can measure that energy and even release it and use it in other forms. Oil runs our engines as we burn it to create energy.

No. No. No. No. And no. Combustion is the transformation of chemical potential energy into heat energy. Mass is conserved. Energy is conserved.

(22-07-2013 09:54 AM)childeye Wrote:  This is well said and all I have been saying.

That may well be part of what you've been saying. It is far from all you've been saying.

(22-07-2013 09:54 AM)childeye Wrote:  Note that assuming something doesn't come out of nothing, there was something apart from what we call the universe.

Do you really not understand the gigantic blazing contradiction you just typed?

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22-07-2013, 10:43 AM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2013 10:47 AM by childeye.)
RE: Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
Sorry, pushed wrong button.
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22-07-2013, 10:44 AM
RE: Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
(22-07-2013 10:14 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Energy as we define and understand it is a consequence of the existence of the universe as we define and understand it. Whatever may or may not have existed prior to the universe as we define and understand it was then, necessarily and by definition, not the same thing as what we observe within the universe. This is not a complicated idea.
I agree it's not complicated, but limited to the confines of what we call the universe. If I may say, I do not wish to argue semantics, but rather to simply be understood. I typically find myself agreeing with those who disagree with me. An utter waste of "time" and "energy".

(22-07-2013 09:54 AM)childeye Wrote:  Something doesn't come out of nothing is a logical assertion.

Quote:Indeed. Is God something?
Yes, that indeed is my overall point.

(22-07-2013 09:54 AM)childeye Wrote:  Matter formed out of energy because we can measure that energy and even release it and use it in other forms. Oil runs our engines as we burn it to create energy.

Quote:No. No. No. No. And no. Combustion is the transformation of chemical potential energy into heat energy. Mass is conserved. Energy is conserved.
In all honesty, this is exactly what I said or meant by what I said. Except for the no, no, no.

(22-07-2013 09:54 AM)childeye Wrote:  This is well said and all I have been saying.

Quote:That may well be part of what you've been saying. It is far from all you've been saying.
This is rather a cryptic response. I will guess because of semantics.

(22-07-2013 09:54 AM)childeye Wrote:  Note that assuming something doesn't come out of nothing, there was something apart from what we call the universe.

Quote:Do you really not understand the gigantic blazing contradiction you just typed?
I understand why it would be contradictory if one is lost in the semantics.
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22-07-2013, 11:00 AM
RE: Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
(16-07-2013 02:36 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 04:13 AM)Shannow Wrote:  Checkmate! I'm converting.


Wait....no....this is a gymnastic argument from ingnorance combined with an argument from authority. I don't think I've seen that particular combination before. Just Super. I prefer your work on faith, but this is up there in my top 5 'Childeye specials'.
So all of the geniuses in the world drew great calculations on thousands of chalkboards and finally after lifetimes of combined study finally concluded there is a God. So when they told the little child of faith coloring in his coloring book, he said, "oh yeah, I knew that". Zero is not greater than One.

Classic... I love these new age reinterpretations of christianity. same great taste, 30% less logic.

You never back up anything with any facts or data, just your opinions.
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22-07-2013, 11:16 AM
RE: Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
I don't think wanting to believe in a God is a benefit or a defect. It's a reality: we want to understand the things we do not understand. Our minds have to seek that understanding by formulating a hypothesis. A benevolent God who cares about us is as good a starting point as any. The problem comes when we exalt that God over the evidence, when we refuse to see evidence because it conflicts with our concept of God. God is the ultimate guess, and when the data start coming in, inevitably failing to support God or contradicting Him outright, it is folly to assume the original guess was right but the evidence and data are wrong.
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