Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
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16-07-2013, 10:25 PM (This post was last modified: 16-07-2013 10:49 PM by childeye.)
RE: Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
(16-07-2013 09:21 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 09:06 PM)childeye Wrote:  Actually, you are correct, ice and water have different energy measurements and so does steam. In fact ice and steam have opposing forms of energy so to speak. One would cancel out the other while expending their energy. You actually make my point better than I did.

I am also in no way making the same point as you. It is utterly fallacious to characterize a differential in thermal energy as 'opposition'.

Indeed, water, like all other substance, gains energy when heated, exactly commensurate with the principle of mass-energy equivalence.

(16-07-2013 09:01 PM)childeye Wrote:  Respectfully, it is not that simple. Your terms are misleading. You leave out motion. You leave no place for energy to be nothing but an object. Energy is equivalent to working, expending energy in many forms. We can store energy in batteries without changing mass. Heat is a type of energy measured in degrees. Hence, energy is not an object.

It would appear that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Mass and energy are separately conserved but nonetheless necessarily concomitant properties of anything which exists. This is what is meant by equivalence; a certain amount of mass necessarily possesses a certain amount of energy, and a certain amount of energy necessarily possesses a certain amount of mass. This is verifiable by direct experiment.

This was shown definitively one hundred and eight years ago by an extraordinarily gifted man. It has been repeatedly tested and confirmed in the intervening years. There is more and greater truth contained in the single statement E=mc² than in all the worthless scriptures ever written.
Peace sir. I do not wish to show disrespect for your knowledge of the subject. Nor do I wish to pretend I know more about it than you. I admit I am not schooled and am ignorant in the terminology. I can appreciate why mass and energy are considered equivalent. I can appreciate that an atom has energy that is released in some other form when split. This does not make them the same in my view. But if I am correct in understanding what mass is, mass increases as an object increases speed. I see this when I swing a hammer. In my view this can only happen because of motion since my hammer does not increase in substance. I see Light is energy because there are photons in motion. I see no light or energy when the photons stop moving. I therefore must conclude that energy is not the same as matter. It is therefore conceivable to me that energy is a description of something other than matter without denying matter is held together by or mass is formed by energy. That is what I honestly see.
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17-07-2013, 01:48 AM
RE: Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
(16-07-2013 10:25 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 09:21 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I am also in no way making the same point as you. It is utterly fallacious to characterize a differential in thermal energy as 'opposition'.

Indeed, water, like all other substance, gains energy when heated, exactly commensurate with the principle of mass-energy equivalence.


It would appear that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Mass and energy are separately conserved but nonetheless necessarily concomitant properties of anything which exists. This is what is meant by equivalence; a certain amount of mass necessarily possesses a certain amount of energy, and a certain amount of energy necessarily possesses a certain amount of mass. This is verifiable by direct experiment.

This was shown definitively one hundred and eight years ago by an extraordinarily gifted man. It has been repeatedly tested and confirmed in the intervening years. There is more and greater truth contained in the single statement E=mc² than in all the worthless scriptures ever written.
Peace sir. I do not wish to show disrespect for your knowledge of the subject. Nor do I wish to pretend I know more about it than you. I admit I am not schooled and am ignorant in the terminology. I can appreciate why mass and energy are considered equivalent. I can appreciate that an atom has energy that is released in some other form when split. This does not make them the same in my view. But if I am correct in understanding what mass is, mass increases as an object increases speed. I see this when I swing a hammer. In my view this can only happen because of motion since my hammer does not increase in substance. I see Light is energy because there are photons in motion. I see no light or energy when the photons stop moving. I therefore must conclude that energy is not the same as matter. It is therefore conceivable to me that energy is a description of something other than matter without denying matter is held together by or mass is formed by energy. That is what I honestly see.

I'm digging way into the recesses of my memory here, but I think the energy of a moving object is directly proportional to the mass of that object and to the square of its velocity. So if a car doubles its speed it will hit a stationary wall four times as hard. The mass of an object does not increase as it increases speed, only its energy. I'm happy, however, to be corrected.
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17-07-2013, 03:02 AM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2013 03:11 AM by Filox.)
RE: Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
Sorry about this post, we seem to have some posting issues, so we are working on it and I am testing something. It seems my tests were successful. I'm going to edit a lot of posts now, just to make them visible, do not be alarmed, I am not censuring or changing anything.

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17-07-2013, 06:08 AM
RE: Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
(16-07-2013 08:16 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 08:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  E=mc²

Energy and matter are one and the same. I'm sorry that doesn't make sense to you.

How did you make a superscript 2?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-07-2013, 06:10 AM
RE: Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
(16-07-2013 05:21 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 05:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  It's "Hawking", no "s".
Thanks for the correction. My apologies to Mr. Hawking.

It's "Dr. Hawking".

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-07-2013, 06:16 AM
RE: Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
(16-07-2013 10:25 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 09:21 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I am also in no way making the same point as you. It is utterly fallacious to characterize a differential in thermal energy as 'opposition'.

Indeed, water, like all other substance, gains energy when heated, exactly commensurate with the principle of mass-energy equivalence.


It would appear that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Mass and energy are separately conserved but nonetheless necessarily concomitant properties of anything which exists. This is what is meant by equivalence; a certain amount of mass necessarily possesses a certain amount of energy, and a certain amount of energy necessarily possesses a certain amount of mass. This is verifiable by direct experiment.

This was shown definitively one hundred and eight years ago by an extraordinarily gifted man. It has been repeatedly tested and confirmed in the intervening years. There is more and greater truth contained in the single statement E=mc² than in all the worthless scriptures ever written.
Peace sir. I do not wish to show disrespect for your knowledge of the subject. Nor do I wish to pretend I know more about it than you. I admit I am not schooled and am ignorant in the terminology. I can appreciate why mass and energy are considered equivalent. I can appreciate that an atom has energy that is released in some other form when split. This does not make them the same in my view. But if I am correct in understanding what mass is, mass increases as an object increases speed. I see this when I swing a hammer. In my view this can only happen because of motion since my hammer does not increase in substance. I see Light is energy because there are photons in motion. I see no light or energy when the photons stop moving. I therefore must conclude that energy is not the same as matter. It is therefore conceivable to me that energy is a description of something other than matter without denying matter is held together by or mass is formed by energy. That is what I honestly see.

At the moment of the Big Bang, and for some time after, there was pure energy. The universe was too energetic for matter to exist.
As the universe expanded, the average energy per unit volume decreased 'cooling' the universe. Quarks formed, then hadrons, then H and He nuclei, and so on.

Mass is energy, energy is mass.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-07-2013, 04:13 PM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2013 04:54 PM by childeye.)
RE: Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
(17-07-2013 06:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 10:25 PM)childeye Wrote:  Peace sir. I do not wish to show disrespect for your knowledge of the subject. Nor do I wish to pretend I know more about it than you. I admit I am not schooled and am ignorant in the terminology. I can appreciate why mass and energy are considered equivalent. I can appreciate that an atom has energy that is released in some other form when split. This does not make them the same in my view. But if I am correct in understanding what mass is, mass increases as an object increases speed. I see this when I swing a hammer. In my view this can only happen because of motion since my hammer does not increase in substance. I see Light is energy because there are photons in motion. I see no light or energy when the photons stop moving. I therefore must conclude that energy is not the same as matter. It is therefore conceivable to me that energy is a description of something other than matter without denying matter is held together by or mass is formed by energy. That is what I honestly see.

At the moment of the Big Bang, and for some time after, there was pure energy. The universe was too energetic for matter to exist.
As the universe expanded, the average energy per unit volume decreased 'cooling' the universe. Quarks formed, then hadrons, then H and He nuclei, and so on.

Mass is energy, energy is mass.
Thank you Chas for your explanation. This is in fact more or less what I have been trying to say from the beginning. Sheesh.

I'm not sure what you mean by pure energy, so I am not going to agree or disagree with the application. But the point is that energy was not matter at that point you described as too hot or too energetic, and therefore matter and energy are not the same. To be clear I am not saying nor have I ever said that matter is not composed of energy. I am simply saying they are different terms with distinctive applied meanings. So now that we have been through that misunderstanding, my original point is still standing about Dr. Hawking and his premise. God's energy is not subject to time and space, time and space are subject to God's energy. Why do I think this? Because the energy would have to come first, then the order of the pre-conceived universe including time was unfolded which is why the Higgs boson is important. If there is an architect to creation and a meaning to life, then this is what would have had to have happened in my limited view.
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17-07-2013, 04:31 PM
RE: Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
(17-07-2013 04:13 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 06:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  At the moment of the Big Bang, and for some time after, there was pure energy. The universe was too energetic for matter to exist.
As the universe expanded, the average energy per unit volume decreased 'cooling' the universe. Quarks formed, then hadrons, then H and He nuclei, and so on.

Mass is energy, energy is mass.
This is in fact more or less what I have been trying to say from the beginning. Sheesh. I'm not sure what you mean by pure energy, so I am not going to agree or disagree with the application. But the point is that energy was not matter at that point you described as too hot or too energetic, and therefore matter and energy are not the same.

You clearly do not understand what I just said.

Mass and energy are just forms of the same thing.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-07-2013, 05:00 PM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2013 05:03 PM by childeye.)
RE: Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
(17-07-2013 04:31 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 04:13 PM)childeye Wrote:  This is in fact more or less what I have been trying to say from the beginning. Sheesh. I'm not sure what you mean by pure energy, so I am not going to agree or disagree with the application. But the point is that energy was not matter at that point you described as too hot or too energetic, and therefore matter and energy are not the same.

You clearly do not understand what I just said.

Mass and energy are just forms of the same thing.
No I clearly understand what you are saying. Read the record, I am saying from the outset that matter and energy are not the same by definition. I am perfectly aware that matter and mass are forms of energy. There would be no matter without energy but there is energy without matter. Hence I describe God as the source of the energy that created the universe.
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19-07-2013, 08:06 PM
RE: Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?
CE - think of it this way.

Water (a liquid) can also be ice (a solid) and water vapor (a gas)
It's all still H2O but in different states of matter.

It's not the exact relationship between matter and energy, but it is the most simplistic example I can give that I think you can understand.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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