Is religion a delusion?
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06-11-2015, 12:15 PM
RE: Is religion a delusion?
(06-11-2015 12:00 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 11:26 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I’m not going to change your perception of me, or try to. I’ve been on atheists and religious forums for close to decade, and I’m just gonna be me, and I tend to get along ok with most people. But you’re not gonna bully me into accepting your arguments, if I disagree with an argument, I try and state why, the best I can.

But you’re beyond a fucking argument, you seem to be on some personal moral crusade of one.



Yea, you’re just a pathetic bully. Since you don’t like me, rather then just ignoring each other, you prefer to harass and bully me hoping that I eventually can’t tolerate it anymore, and leave.

I will however make a deal with you to stop my crusade regarding your past dishonest transgressions, if you do a couple of things.

First, 2 options regarding your Harry Potter claims
Option 1) Actually deliver the "abundant and compelling evidence" of the fictionality of Harry Potter you claim exists.

Or

Option 2) Admit that you are full of shit and that that claim was merely a red herring designed to relieve you of the burden of proof for backing up your bullshit religious claims about your Zombie messiah.



And secondly, admit your failings in your use of language to manipulate conversations to generate a specific spin towards your religious delusions.

^Which I have made multiple threads regarding.

Am I on trial here?

What is this supposed to be a confession under waterboarding? lol.

I don't know why you want to devote yourself to just getting worked up, we could continue working each other up, until the very end, but I don't know why you would want to, I don't want to. It gets trying, and exhausting after awhile, and I'm starting to get a headache from it.

We've had a good run, but it's time to put in those divorce papers, for you to just throw in the towel of your little crusade, and get on with your life, and call a truce. You're stuck here with me, and it's not going to get any easier for you by picking a fight at every turn.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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06-11-2015, 12:20 PM
RE: Is religion a delusion?
(06-11-2015 10:43 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Survival of the fittest; the capacity to thrive by means of adjusting to ones habitat.

Closer than I would have expected. In any given environment some species, and some individuals within each species, are better equipped to survive and reproduce than others. Those that are better suited (more fit) tend to have more offspring so the populations gradually change to be even better at surviving and reproducing. You could say that is "adjusting to ones habitat" but only in a general sense over a long period (many, many individual lifetimes). Different species may develop different strategies that make them equally fit (able to survive to reproduce), at least until the environment changes.

You've sometimes claimed that "man is the most fit animal", or words to that effect. What exactly do you mean by that?

Quote:Natural selection;
The ability of nature to allow those adequately adjusted to habitat to thrive and those that lack said adjustment to fail in existence or the advancement there of.

Again, closer than I expected. It gets troublesome when "nature" is personified like that. Nature isn't allowing or disallowing anything, it simply is. Natural selection does describe the success or failure of species but, from all the evidence, it is a mindless process with no objective. It is only from our vantage point looking at the system that we see a process.

Your use of "advancement" is also unwarranted. Species do not advance, they adapt. To say they advance is to judge their position on some scale but the only scale that matters in evolution is the ability to survive and reproduce. Everything else is a bias imposed from outside.

Quote:No, humans are not more evolved. Evolution is of the whole of existence and doesn't pertain to one type of life more than another.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "evolution is the whole of existence" but I think the general idea there is about right. No species is "more evolved" than any other except through the lens of human bias and an equivocation of the meaning of "evolved".

Now how does that square with "man is the most fit"?

Quote:Man does manipulate the natural process though.

You would have to elaborate on what you mean by that. I might agree and I might not. Man has more ability to manipulate his environment than other species but calling that the manipulation of natural processes doesn't make sense to me.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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06-11-2015, 12:26 PM
Is religion a delusion?
(06-11-2015 12:15 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 12:00 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I will however make a deal with you to stop my crusade regarding your past dishonest transgressions, if you do a couple of things.

First, 2 options regarding your Harry Potter claims
Option 1) Actually deliver the "abundant and compelling evidence" of the fictionality of Harry Potter you claim exists.

Or

Option 2) Admit that you are full of shit and that that claim was merely a red herring designed to relieve you of the burden of proof for backing up your bullshit religious claims about your Zombie messiah.



And secondly, admit your failings in your use of language to manipulate conversations to generate a specific spin towards your religious delusions.

^Which I have made multiple threads regarding.

Am I on trial here?

What is this supposed to be a confession under waterboarding? lol.

I don't know why you want to devote yourself to just getting worked up, we could continue working each other up, until the very end, but I don't know why you would want to, I don't want to. It gets trying, and exhausting after awhile, and I'm starting to get a headache from it.

We've had a good run, but it's time to put in those divorce papers, for you to just throw in the towel of your little crusade, and get on with your life, and call a truce. You're stuck here with me, and it's not going to get any easier for you by picking a fight at every turn.

More bullshit. I think your "headache" is from me saying things that cause your brain to do what we call "thinking."

If you only want to continue to deflect instead of deliver, then don't expect me to give two shits about your opinion nor should you expect my persistence to subsist. It's not a matter of getting "worked up" on my end, you're a fleeting thought. If you're getting "worked up" then I'd suggest you ask yourself why being called out generates anxiety for you. Although the answer might cause your insecurities to flare up. Perhaps you'd be better off just praying Laughat

Like I have said (and demonstrated as successful based upon reading your interactions with others on the forum), my goal of making you look like the dishonest ass you are, is facilitated by your continued dishonesty, deflection, and cries of "bullying."

You want answers and reply, and I give them to you. But you don't like what I have to say, so you remain determined to ignore the substance of what I say. Perhaps it's because you know I'm right? Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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06-11-2015, 12:28 PM
RE: Is religion a delusion?
(06-11-2015 12:20 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 10:43 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Survival of the fittest; the capacity to thrive by means of adjusting to ones habitat.

Closer than I would have expected. In any given environment some species, and some individuals within each species, are better equipped to survive and reproduce than others. Those that are better suited (more fit) tend to have more offspring so the populations gradually change to be even better at surviving and reproducing. You could say that is "adjusting to ones habitat" but only in a general sense over a long period (many, many individual lifetimes). Different species may develop different strategies that make them equally fit (able to survive to reproduce), at least until the environment changes.

You've sometimes claimed that "man is the most fit animal", or words to that effect. What exactly do you mean by that?

Quote:Natural selection;
The ability of nature to allow those adequately adjusted to habitat to thrive and those that lack said adjustment to fail in existence or the advancement there of.

Again, closer than I expected. It gets troublesome when "nature" is personified like that. Nature isn't allowing or disallowing anything, it simply is. Natural selection does describe the success or failure of species but, from all the evidence, it is a mindless process with no objective. It is only from our vantage point looking at the system that we see a process.

Your use of "advancement" is also unwarranted. Species do not advance, they adapt. To say they advance is to judge their position on some scale but the only scale that matters in evolution is the ability to survive and reproduce. Everything else is a bias imposed from outside.

Quote:No, humans are not more evolved. Evolution is of the whole of existence and doesn't pertain to one type of life more than another.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "evolution is the whole of existence" but I think the general idea there is about right. No species is "more evolved" than any other except through the lens of human bias and an equivocation of the meaning of "evolved".

Now how does that square with "man is the most fit"?

Quote:Man does manipulate the natural process though.

You would have to elaborate on what you mean by that. I might agree and I might not. Man has more ability to manipulate his environment than other species but calling that the manipulation of natural processes doesn't make sense to me.
Man Benjamin g the most fit;
I may have made a similar statement. What I mean is that we have unique power and responsibility over existence that other species don't seem to have.

Manipulation of evolution by man; the fact that man devours resources and life with little regard for the existence of other life or it's habitat. This has slowed somewhat in recent years, but is still in play today.

Thank you for being level and not belittling me. It is appreciated. So you are surprised? I can understand that. I generally speak of other topics, and if you base my scope of knowledge on your experience with other theists then you could easily assume my ignorance. Through the vast breadth of our conversations I would think that you would have surmised that I, indeed, am not your average bear, or theist,or atheist, or converted atheist, or man in general.

Sincerely,
Peace
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06-11-2015, 12:44 PM
RE: Is religion a delusion?
(06-11-2015 12:28 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 12:20 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Closer than I would have expected. In any given environment some species, and some individuals within each species, are better equipped to survive and reproduce than others. Those that are better suited (more fit) tend to have more offspring so the populations gradually change to be even better at surviving and reproducing. You could say that is "adjusting to ones habitat" but only in a general sense over a long period (many, many individual lifetimes). Different species may develop different strategies that make them equally fit (able to survive to reproduce), at least until the environment changes.

You've sometimes claimed that "man is the most fit animal", or words to that effect. What exactly do you mean by that?


Again, closer than I expected. It gets troublesome when "nature" is personified like that. Nature isn't allowing or disallowing anything, it simply is. Natural selection does describe the success or failure of species but, from all the evidence, it is a mindless process with no objective. It is only from our vantage point looking at the system that we see a process.

Your use of "advancement" is also unwarranted. Species do not advance, they adapt. To say they advance is to judge their position on some scale but the only scale that matters in evolution is the ability to survive and reproduce. Everything else is a bias imposed from outside.


I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "evolution is the whole of existence" but I think the general idea there is about right. No species is "more evolved" than any other except through the lens of human bias and an equivocation of the meaning of "evolved".

Now how does that square with "man is the most fit"?


You would have to elaborate on what you mean by that. I might agree and I might not. Man has more ability to manipulate his environment than other species but calling that the manipulation of natural processes doesn't make sense to me.
Man Benjamin g the most fit;
I may have made a similar statement. What I mean is that we have unique power and responsibility over existence that other species don't seem to have.

Manipulation of evolution by man; the fact that man devours resources and life with little regard for the existence of other life or it's habitat. This has slowed somewhat in recent years, but is still in play today.

Thank you for being level and not belittling me. It is appreciated. So you are surprised? I can understand that. I generally speak of other topics, and if you base my scope of knowledge on your experience with other theists then you could easily assume my ignorance. Through the vast breadth of our conversations I would think that you would have surmised that I, indeed, am not your average bear, or theist,or atheist, or converted atheist, or man in general.

Sincerely,
Peace
Not "Benjamin g", "being" is what I meant. I really need to practice proof reading more. I make myself look uneducated due to haste. Proofreading on a phone is a pain, but needed. Haste in most any situation is unwarranted.
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06-11-2015, 03:38 PM
RE: Is religion a delusion?
(06-11-2015 12:28 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Man being the most fit;
I may have made a similar statement. What I mean is that we have unique power and responsibility over existence that other species don't seem to have.

Our cognitive abilities allow us to exert power over other species but the responsibility to use that wisely is something we have to demand of ourselves. If we don't use our abilities carefully we may make this world unlivable for us so yes, I think we have a responsibility to ourselves and to other species to be careful. That is a moral conclusion arrived at by looking at the evidence.

Quote:Manipulation of evolution by man; the fact that man devours resources and life with little regard for the existence of other life or it's habitat. This has slowed somewhat in recent years, but is still in play today.

Our manipulation of the environment is placing new and heavier stresses on many, if not all, species. In that sense we are affecting the evolutionary process because what traits are beneficial to survival are being altered. I would not say that we are manipulating evolution though since that implies intent and it just doesn't apply in the general case.

Quote:Thank you for being level and not belittling me. It is appreciated.

If you are going to talk about factual things that can be investigated then I'm happy to reciprocate. If you are going to make unsubstantiated claims about what you know god is or wants then I will tell you that I think you are fooling yourself. I deal in things that can be tested and verified. I will also deal in speculation provided it is completely understood to be just speculation. I don't have any patience for fantasy asserted as truth.

Quote:So you are surprised? I can understand that. I generally speak of other topics, and if you base my scope of knowledge on your experience with other theists then you could easily assume my ignorance.

I am surprised that you seem to have a better grasp of what evolution is than most theists but I don't base my assessment of you on other theists. I know many that are completely at home with evolution, and other sciences. I don't assume ignorance, I assume only they have at least one area of their beliefs that they protect from critical thinking.

These last few posts have been very out of character from most of your previous ones. If you posted more in this vein you'd find much less condemnation here. It is quite arrogant to come to an atheist forum to promote your beliefs while refusing to interact with skeptics in the only way they deal with the world -- through evidence. I think you'll see that people like Jason and Aliza are getting much gentler treatment because they are explaining what they believe, and to some extent why, but not preaching. If your goal here is to get your message out to people you should understand that preaching it is a complete turn-off and will get you nowhere.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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06-11-2015, 04:32 PM
RE: Is religion a delusion?
(06-11-2015 03:38 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 12:28 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Man being the most fit;
I may have made a similar statement. What I mean is that we have unique power and responsibility over existence that other species don't seem to have.

Our cognitive abilities allow us to exert power over other species but the responsibility to use that wisely is something we have to demand of ourselves. If we don't use our abilities carefully we may make this world unlivable for us so yes, I think we have a responsibility to ourselves and to other species to be careful. That is a moral conclusion arrived at by looking at the evidence.

Quote:Manipulation of evolution by man; the fact that man devours resources and life with little regard for the existence of other life or it's habitat. This has slowed somewhat in recent years, but is still in play today.

Our manipulation of the environment is placing new and heavier stresses on many, if not all, species. In that sense we are affecting the evolutionary process because what traits are beneficial to survival are being altered. I would not say that we are manipulating evolution though since that implies intent and it just doesn't apply in the general case.

Quote:Thank you for being level and not belittling me. It is appreciated.

If you are going to talk about factual things that can be investigated then I'm happy to reciprocate. If you are going to make unsubstantiated claims about what you know god is or wants then I will tell you that I think you are fooling yourself. I deal in things that can be tested and verified. I will also deal in speculation provided it is completely understood to be just speculation. I don't have any patience for fantasy asserted as truth.

Quote:So you are surprised? I can understand that. I generally speak of other topics, and if you base my scope of knowledge on your experience with other theists then you could easily assume my ignorance.

I am surprised that you seem to have a better grasp of what evolution is than most theists but I don't base my assessment of you on other theists. I know many that are completely at home with evolution, and other sciences. I don't assume ignorance, I assume only they have at least one area of their beliefs that they protect from critical thinking.

These last few posts have been very out of character from most of your previous ones. If you posted more in this vein you'd find much less condemnation here. It is quite arrogant to come to an atheist forum to promote your beliefs while refusing to interact with skeptics in the only way they deal with the world -- through evidence. I think you'll see that people like Jason and Aliza are getting much gentler treatment because they are explaining what they believe, and to some extent why, but not preaching. If your goal here is to get your message out to people you should understand that preaching it is a complete turn-off and will get you nowhere.
I agree. Unfortunately I cannot provide proof for the things I know. Thankfully they do not refute the things that you know.

I'm glad we have seen eye to eye this once. Perhaps it will happen again at some time, perhaps not. Either way we have reached some milestone here today. I will work to come off as less arrogant. I can't do too much about the evidence you seek bit tell you what you don't care to hear. Due to the nature of things that cannot be adequately described through the observation of the physical and reproduced for others I can only reiterate that proof, unlike scientific proof can only be found for oneself.
I look forward to speaking with you further. Please try not to take offence to my stance. I know that you do not think my stance is credible. Can we leave it at that and know that I will work to be less abrasive or assertive of the things I believe. Oh....ouch, it hurt a little to say believe instead of know. Pride is of little use to me anyway though so screw it.

Peace
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07-11-2015, 04:37 PM
RE: Is religion a delusion?
(06-11-2015 12:28 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Man Benjamin g being the most fit;

No. All organisms are fit for their environment. Man may be able to adapt to more environments than other organisms, but many organisms are adapted to environments that are impossible for man to adapt to.

Quote:I may have made a similar statement. What I mean is that we have unique power and responsibility over existence that other species don't seem to have.

Power? Sure, we are capable of destroying habitat that other organisms depend on.

Quote:Manipulation of evolution by man; the fact that man devours resources and life with little regard for the existence of other life or it's habitat. This has slowed somewhat in recent years, but is still in play today.

No other species have regard for the survival of other species or habitats, except in some very narrow contexts.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-11-2015, 05:02 PM
RE: Is religion a delusion?
(07-11-2015 04:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 12:28 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Man Benjamin g being the most fit;

No. All organisms are fit for their environment. Man may be able to adapt to more environments than other organisms, but many organisms are adapted to environments that are impossible for man to adapt to.

Quote:I may have made a similar statement. What I mean is that we have unique power and responsibility over existence that other species don't seem to have.

Power? Sure, we are capable of destroying habitat that other organisms depend on.

Quote:Manipulation of evolution by man; the fact that man devours resources and life with little regard for the existence of other life or it's habitat. This has slowed somewhat in recent years, but is still in play today.

No other species have regard for the survival of other species or habitats, except in some very narrow contexts.
That narrow context happens to be flawless without the intervention of man.
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07-11-2015, 05:45 PM
RE: Is religion a delusion?
(06-11-2015 12:15 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Am I on trial here?

Yes.

[Image: the_trial___1962_by_swoboda.jpg]

[Image: 2685048-chrono+trigger-+trial.png]

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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