Is religion a delusion?
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04-11-2015, 12:43 PM
RE: Is religion a delusion?
(04-11-2015 12:33 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I'm not sure what you think you're saying or why you feel the need to say it.


I think it's a fairly straightforward question about how do we distinguish between correctable beliefs (mistaken beliefs), and delusional ones.

I would think if I came across someone who held a mistaken belief as opposed to a delusional one, I would find that he's receptive to my attempts to correct him. Where as if held a delusional belief, he wouldn't be so receptive, and perhaps put up a considerable degree of resistance.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-11-2015, 12:44 PM
Is religion a delusion?
(04-11-2015 12:43 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 12:33 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I'm not sure what you think you're saying or why you feel the need to say it.


I think it's a fairly straightforward question about how do we distinguish between correctable beliefs (mistaken beliefs), and delusional ones.

I would think if I came across someone who held a mistaken belief as opposed to a delusional one, I would find that he's receptive to my attempts to correct him. Where as if held a delusional belief, he wouldn't be so receptive, and perhaps put up a considerable degree of resistance.

Why do you think what you're saying, is not what I've already explicitly said?

(It's important to note that it isn't the effort people are open to, it's the information. And if all you present is bullshit and logical fallacy, you're not going to convince anyone anything other than your ignorance)

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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04-11-2015, 04:29 PM
RE: Is religion a delusion?
(04-11-2015 12:44 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Why do you think what you're saying, is not what I've already explicitly said?
(It's important to note that it isn't the effort people are open to, it's the information. And if all you present is bullshit and logical fallacy, you're not going to convince anyone anything other than your ignorance)

According to you, we don’t have to be a psychologist or physiatrist to infer whether or not someone is delusional, and it’s particularly within the means of laypeople to do so.

If I come across an individual who holds a variety of wrong and poorly formed views, and I find that no matter how hard, or how well I try and communicate what’s wrong with his views, to correct him, if I can see that the points being made are not being registered or conceptualized by him in any meaningful way. I can conclude by this that he’s not merely mistaken, but there is some sort of cognitive abnormality at play, some strong from of dissonance, thereby allowing me to label his views as delusional.

If we’re trying to be methodological in regards to our discernment rather then just resorting to calling individuals delusional as a cheap insult, we can gauge from how people handle being corrected, whether or not cognitive abnormalities are at play as opposed to just correctable mistaken beliefs.

Though you’re not particularly supportive of armchair psychology, you are in this case. In fact it appears you’re quite confident in your ability to recognize delusional beliefs, from mistaken, or non-delusional ones. Your quite confident in your ability to discern people mental states, by how they respond to your corrective measures.

If all this is so, do you think you’re able to apply this methodology to yourself, to discern whether or not some of your views and beliefs are less driven by rational considerations, and formed by a series of self-deceptive tendencies, brought along by factors like resentment, depression, a desire to protect your self-image etc…?

That would be a feat in and of itself, but I’m wondering if you feel so attuned to your own mental states, that you can discern when you’re suffering from cognitive abnormalities of your own. Can your sense your own dissonance, recognize the particular sensation in your brain that it produces?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-11-2015, 05:16 PM
RE: Is religion a delusion?
(04-11-2015 08:29 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Good question.

(Sorry for the length of the post but I want to flesh it out for my own reasons.)

I think that a better explanation and descriptor for religious beliefs might be what S.T. Colridge called “Suspension of Disbelief” and what Tolkien later called “second belief”.

Coleridge “suggested that if a writer could infuse a 'human interest and a semblance of truth' into a fantastic tale, the reader would suspend judgement concerning the implausibility of the narrative. Suspension of disbelief often applies to fictional works of the action, comedy, fantasy, and horror genres.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief

I like how T. Botos says, “Suspension of disbelief is often an essential element for a magic act or a circus sideshow act. For example, an audience is not expected to actually believe that a woman is cut in half or transforms into a gorilla in order to enjoy the performance.” Botos, Tim (21 August 2008). “‘Gorilla Girl’ sideshow act hangs on despite changing times”

Same could be said for things like transubstantiation when the faithful believe the host literally transforms into the body of Christ. It isn’t so much a delusion as a suspension of disbelief. This is but one example of many such as rising from the dead, walking on water, faith healing, speaking in tongues etc.

Some have already mentioned that for most of us we were indoctrinated into the belief. This is interesting in light of Norman Holland’s argument where he says, “...that’s why humans have such trouble recognizing lies. We first believe, then have to make a conscious effort to disbelieve. Only when we stop perceiving to think about what we have seen or heard, only then do we assess its truth-value.” As children we can’t help but believe our parents and grandparents that the story is true. I have long ago stopped railing against them and come to the realization they are victims just as I was of the same brain-washing.

I fall under the category of having been one to assess its truth-value and breaking the grip religion had on me (a very difficult and life altering process). This is why religions fight so hard to keep the faithful from reaching this stage, the assessing and questioning, for fear of “breaking the spell” and losing the congregant. Again Holland, “We don’t judge the truth of what we’re perceiving, even though, if we stop being transported and think about it, we know quite well it’s a fiction.” Holland, Norman (2008). "Spiderman? Sure! The Neuroscience of Disbelief".

Later Tolkien suggested that there is a better expalnation he termed “secondary belief”, that he describes as follows, "in order for the narrative to work, the reader must believe that what he reads is true within the secondary reality of the fictional world. By focusing on creating an internally consistent fictional world, the author makes secondary belief possible.”

This is exactly what religions do, create fictional worlds that while they remain internally consistent they don’t conform to reality. I think it is a type of compartmentalization, a neat trick the churches use to exploit human weaknesses.

The question of are the religious delusional is probably better answered by saying that while by definition they are, what they are truly exhibiting is suspension of disbelief, the inability to recognize a lie and a lack of skeptical questioning.

A couple of days ago, I drafted a new OP called "Suspension of Disbelief" ... it seems pointless to finish it now as you've answered my question.

I was struggling to find an analogy that would help me empathise with the idea of someone going "back to faith".

Actually, I still have trouble understanding this... once the spell is broken, how can anyone choose to unbreak it?

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04-11-2015, 05:22 PM
Is religion a delusion?
(04-11-2015 04:29 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 12:44 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Why do you think what you're saying, is not what I've already explicitly said?
(It's important to note that it isn't the effort people are open to, it's the information. And if all you present is bullshit and logical fallacy, you're not going to convince anyone anything other than your ignorance)

According to you, we don’t have to be a psychologist or physiatrist to infer whether or not someone is delusional, and it’s particularly within the means of laypeople to do so.

If I come across an individual who holds a variety of wrong and poorly formed views, and I find that no matter how hard, or how well I try and communicate what’s wrong with his views, to correct him, if I can see that the points being made are not being registered or conceptualized by him in any meaningful way. I can conclude by this that he’s not merely mistaken, but there is some sort of cognitive abnormality at play, some strong from of dissonance, thereby allowing me to label his views as delusional.

If we’re trying to be methodological in regards to our discernment rather then just resorting to calling individuals delusional as a cheap insult, we can gauge from how people handle being corrected, whether or not cognitive abnormalities are at play as opposed to just correctable mistaken beliefs.

Though you’re not particularly supportive of armchair psychology, you are in this case. In fact it appears you’re quite confident in your ability to recognize delusional beliefs, from mistaken, or non-delusional ones. Your quite confident in your ability to discern people mental states, by how they respond to your corrective measures.

If all this is so, do you think you’re able to apply this methodology to yourself, to discern whether or not some of your views and beliefs are less driven by rational considerations, and formed by a series of self-deceptive tendencies, brought along by factors like resentment, depression, a desire to protect your self-image etc…?

That would be a feat in and of itself, but I’m wondering if you feel so attuned to your own mental states, that you can discern when you’re suffering from cognitive abnormalities of your own. Can your sense your own dissonance, recognize the particular sensation in your brain that it produces?

Your fucking straw men are so goddamn dumb I nearly choked in the middle of the airport laughing Laughat

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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04-11-2015, 05:24 PM (This post was last modified: 04-11-2015 05:36 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Is religion a delusion?
(04-11-2015 11:39 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 10:12 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  WTF are you talking about? Expand on the claim that objective reality exists? Are you fucking stupid?

Uhm, no you fat son of a bitch, ...

I don't think you appreciate that calling a fat son of a bitch a "fat son of a bitch" is a term of endearment. Instead of waking up to Reveille I wake up to "Get your ass up and go to work you lazy fat son of a bitch."

(04-11-2015 12:09 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 12:02 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  My my, you are a nasty douchebag and an idiot to boot.

I just follow your lead. If you want to take it down a nasty ad hominem route, then hey two can play that game.

I'm not sure you want to go down this route TommyBoy. Not sure you got enough goddam vulgar motherfucking drunk hairless talking pirate monkey in you. But it will be fun if you do. And I'll back you if you do. And by back you I mean I will help you learn to be a goddam vulgar motherfucking drunk hairless talking pirate monkey.

#sigh
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04-11-2015, 05:29 PM
RE: Is religion a delusion?
(04-11-2015 05:22 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Your fucking straw men are so goddamn dumb I nearly choked in the middle of the airport laughing Laughat

Another, entirely predictable response from you.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-11-2015, 05:31 PM
Is religion a delusion?
(04-11-2015 05:29 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 05:22 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Your fucking straw men are so goddamn dumb I nearly choked in the middle of the airport laughing Laughat

Another, entirely predictable response from you.

I can't give you substantive replies to straw men and monumental ignorance.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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04-11-2015, 05:47 PM
RE: Is religion a delusion?
(04-11-2015 05:24 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I don't think you appreciate that calling a fat son of a bitch a "fat son of a bitch" is a term of endearment.

TheBeardedGuy doesn't find the term son of a bitch endearing. He's a sensitive guy.

Quote:I'm not sure you want to go down this route TommyBoy. Not sure you got enough goddam vulgar motherfucking drunk hairless talking pirate monkey in you. But it will be fun if you do. And I'll back you if you do. And by back you I mean I will help you learn to be a goddam vulgar motherfucking drunk hairless talking pirate monkey.

You'd be surprised.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-11-2015, 05:48 PM
RE: Is religion a delusion?
(04-11-2015 05:31 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 05:29 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Another, entirely predictable response from you.

I can't give you substantive replies to straw men and monumental ignorance.

No, you can't give substantive replies because your delusions don't let you.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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