Is "supernatural" a useful word?
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17-08-2016, 01:47 PM
RE: Is "supernatural" a useful word?
(17-08-2016 12:36 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Anything outside the observable universe is non-local to us. If anything outside the observable universe causes an effect you or I can observe it is supernatural.

I tend to agree with tomilay on this. Anything with an unobservable origin, whether internal or external to the known universe, is merely something of an unobservable origin.

"Supernatural" implies beyond the knowledge or understanding of mankind and beyond nature. The universe is a manifestation of "nature". That, if anything, which is beyond the observable universe must surely have some sort of substance, be it akin to "Dark Energy", a form tbat we have not yet discovered how yo observe directly.

Old argument that this is the domain of the gods. Could be right, we just cannot see that far!
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17-08-2016, 02:09 PM
RE: Is "supernatural" a useful word?
(17-08-2016 12:36 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(17-08-2016 05:55 AM)tomilay Wrote:  In a couple billion years, we will lose access to parts of the universe we can now see. Because of expansion. Would you be okay using supernatural to describe them then?

When I say that "Non local" and "Super Natural" are the same, I am talking about causes not places.

Anything outside the observable universe is non-local to us. If anything outside the observable universe causes an effect you or I can observe it is supernatural.

Got ya. I take it that something supernatural, as per your definition, cannot be observed. In principle. As opposed to because we don't have the right measuring appliances or advanced technology.

Something whose existence can not be empirically inferred. No difference to me if it's the father of Jesus Christ. Or the ghost of the taylor who made Queen Victoria's underwear.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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17-08-2016, 05:14 PM
RE: Is "supernatural" a useful word?
(17-08-2016 12:36 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  When I say that "Non local" and "Super Natural" are the same, I am talking about causes not places.

Anything outside the observable universe is non-local to us. If anything outside the observable universe causes an effect you or I can observe it is supernatural.

So if there is another "big bang" expansion of energy and matter that is somehow occupying SpaceTime outside of the SpaceTime of our "big bang" expansion AND if there is a SpaceTime path where by forces e.g. gravity, can be carried from one to another and if we are able to detect that gravity then this gravity would be deemed as "supernatural" rather than being a natural force/cause merely outside our own expanding universe?
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18-08-2016, 01:41 AM
RE: Is "supernatural" a useful word?
(17-08-2016 02:09 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(17-08-2016 12:36 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  When I say that "Non local" and "Super Natural" are the same, I am talking about causes not places.

Anything outside the observable universe is non-local to us. If anything outside the observable universe causes an effect you or I can observe it is supernatural.

Got ya. I take it that something supernatural, as per your definition, cannot be observed. In principle. As opposed to because we don't have the right measuring appliances or advanced technology.

Something whose existence can not be empirically inferred. No difference to me if it's the father of Jesus Christ. Or the ghost of the taylor who made Queen Victoria's underwear.

The effect can be observed, the cause cannot. The effect is local and the cause is non local. In the example I gave, you would certainly observe that you were instantaneously transported across the world. What you would not observe is the programmer changing the variables within the computer simulation that makes up your world.
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18-08-2016, 01:46 AM
RE: Is "supernatural" a useful word?
(17-08-2016 05:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(17-08-2016 12:36 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  When I say that "Non local" and "Super Natural" are the same, I am talking about causes not places.

Anything outside the observable universe is non-local to us. If anything outside the observable universe causes an effect you or I can observe it is supernatural.

So if there is another "big bang" expansion of energy and matter that is somehow occupying SpaceTime outside of the SpaceTime of our "big bang" expansion AND if there is a SpaceTime path where by forces e.g. gravity, can be carried from one to another and if we are able to detect that gravity then this gravity would be deemed as "supernatural" rather than being a natural force/cause merely outside our own expanding universe?

The force carrier particle for gravity is the graviton and those would need to be local for us to observe gravity.

Now if we observed gravitons just popping into existence you could postulate that either God done it or that there exist some parallel dimension where mass exists and gravitons leak from one dimension to another. Neither hypothesis is testable and there really is no reason to favor one over the other unless of course you just assume God doesn't exist.
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18-08-2016, 02:58 AM
RE: Is "supernatural" a useful word?
(18-08-2016 01:46 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The force carrier particle for gravity is the graviton and those would need to be local for us to observe gravity.

Now if we observed gravitons just popping into existence you could postulate that either God done it or that there exist some parallel dimension where mass exists and gravitons leak from one dimension to another. Neither hypothesis is testable and there really is no reason to favor one over the other unless of course you just assume God doesn't exist.

Makes me think of the varying phases of the neutrino. When finally detected, some seemed to be missing. When you take God and parallel dimensions out of the equation- things become much more interesting to me.

As for the term "supernatural"... #allWordsMatter!
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18-08-2016, 03:32 AM
RE: Is "supernatural" a useful word?
(18-08-2016 02:58 AM)Grassy Knoll Wrote:  
(18-08-2016 01:46 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The force carrier particle for gravity is the graviton and those would need to be local for us to observe gravity.

Now if we observed gravitons just popping into existence you could postulate that either God done it or that there exist some parallel dimension where mass exists and gravitons leak from one dimension to another. Neither hypothesis is testable and there really is no reason to favor one over the other unless of course you just assume God doesn't exist.

Makes me think of the varying phases of the neutrino. When finally detected, some seemed to be missing. When you take God and parallel dimensions out of the equation- things become much more interesting to me.

As for the term "supernatural"... #allWordsMatter!

A Supernatural event is just an observable effect whose cause is unobservable.

I assume that causality is always true. I assume that quantum mechanics is true. I assume that Bell's theorem is true. The conclusion of these assumptions is that our world cannot exist without supernatural events.
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18-08-2016, 03:55 AM
RE: Is "supernatural" a useful word?
(18-08-2016 03:32 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  A Supernatural event is just an observable effect whose cause is unobservable.
So you're saying gravity is supernatural.

If we came from dust, then why is there still dust?
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18-08-2016, 03:59 AM
RE: Is "supernatural" a useful word?
(18-08-2016 03:55 AM)cactus Wrote:  
(18-08-2016 03:32 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  A Supernatural event is just an observable effect whose cause is unobservable.
So you're saying gravity is supernatural.

So you're saying mass is unobservable?
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18-08-2016, 06:07 AM
RE: Is "supernatural" a useful word?
(18-08-2016 03:59 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(18-08-2016 03:55 AM)cactus Wrote:  So you're saying gravity is supernatural.

So you're saying mass is unobservable?

Really ? So you can observe the Higgs field and Higgs bosons ?
Fuck Blowme. You're a stupid man.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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