Is the Holy Spirit lazy or ineffective?
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22-04-2014, 06:39 AM
Is the Holy Spirit lazy or ineffective?
Being raised as a good Lutheran, I was told that the only way you can accept God is through the Holy Spirit. He enables you to embrace God... because. It was never really explained to me why this matters.

One thing I can't help but notice is how certain regions seem to be more predisposed to have a certain religion. Sure, there will be people of different religions all over the place, and cultural hubs and large cities will have lots of diversity, but the region on average will be one religion. Now, we know this is mostly because it's how the people were raised and it's what their culture reinforces.

So, the Holy Spirit must be really lazy or otherwise ineffective, since it consistently has trouble overcoming predictable demographics. Does it just not spend as much time in northern Africa, the Middle East, and part of Asia as it does in Europe and the Americas? Why does it have such a hard time? Do those people have "hard hearts" or something? At the end of the day, it seems really unfair to judge a person raised in a Christian country the same as you'd judge someone who was raised from a child to believe that Allah is the one true god while living in a country where apostasy is a capital offense. How is that second person supposed to receive the message in any way that is compelling and not simply dismissed as "a trick from Iblis"?

Whatever it is, the Holy Spirit is having a demonstrably harder time overcoming upbringing and culture.


On a related note, if the Holy Spirit is necessary for this, why did Jesus and the disciples perform all those miracles? The Bible states more than once that they performed miracles so that people would believe:

John 4:48
Quote:48 So Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see [a]signs and wonders, you simply will not believe.

Mark 16:20
Quote:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.


So, which is it? The Holy Spirit alone, or do we need signs and wonders to believe? If it's the former, why all the miracles? If it's the latter, why did all the miracles suddenly stop? The only "miracles" we see now are just random personal experiences people have that feel miraculous (surviving cancer or seeing their baby for the first time), which are... a far cry from walking on water and transmutation.


The Holy spirit really seems to suck at his job, which is impressive, given that its supposed to be part of Almighty God.
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22-04-2014, 07:08 AM
RE: Is the Holy Spirit lazy or ineffective?
(22-04-2014 06:39 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Being raised as a good Lutheran, I was told that the only way you can accept God is through the Holy Spirit. He enables you to embrace God... because. It was never really explained to me why this matters.

One thing I can't help but notice is how certain regions seem to be more predisposed to have a certain religion. Sure, there will be people of different religions all over the place, and cultural hubs and large cities will have lots of diversity, but the region on average will be one religion. Now, we know this is mostly because it's how the people were raised and it's what their culture reinforces.

So, the Holy Spirit must be really lazy or otherwise ineffective, since it consistently has trouble overcoming predictable demographics. Does it just not spend as much time in northern Africa, the Middle East, and part of Asia as it does in Europe and the Americas? Why does it have such a hard time? Do those people have "hard hearts" or something? At the end of the day, it seems really unfair to judge a person raised in a Christian country the same as you'd judge someone who was raised from a child to believe that Allah is the one true god while living in a country where apostasy is a capital offense. How is that second person supposed to receive the message in any way that is compelling and not simply dismissed as "a trick from Iblis"?

Whatever it is, the Holy Spirit is having a demonstrably harder time overcoming upbringing and culture.


On a related note, if the Holy Spirit is necessary for this, why did Jesus and the disciples perform all those miracles? The Bible states more than once that they performed miracles so that people would believe:

John 4:48
Quote:48 So Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see [a]signs and wonders, you simply will not believe.

Mark 16:20
Quote:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.


So, which is it? The Holy Spirit alone, or do we need signs and wonders to believe? If it's the former, why all the miracles? If it's the latter, why did all the miracles suddenly stop? The only "miracles" we see now are just random personal experiences people have that feel miraculous (surviving cancer or seeing their baby for the first time), which are... a far cry from walking on water and transmutation.


The Holy spirit really seems to suck at his job, which is impressive, given that its supposed to be part of Almighty God.

I've had thoughts along those lines. Perhaps a lack of a good trade schools is to blame. Maybe an apprenticeship for Holy Spiritism might have helped? Good help is so hard to find these days. Angel

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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22-04-2014, 07:46 AM
RE: Is the Holy Spirit lazy or ineffective?
Good question, Robby. I'll admit I've never seen a satisfying apologetic for this; however, I will take a stab at it in a bit.

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22-04-2014, 09:01 AM
RE: Is the Holy Spirit lazy or ineffective?
(22-04-2014 07:46 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Good question, Robby. I'll admit I've never seen a satisfying apologetic for this; however, I will take a stab at it in a bit.

Thanks.

This is actually the first thing I remember seriously having a problem with back when I still believed. I used to say that I was lucky to be born in a country that worshiped the correct god, and I assumed that God must somehow reveal himself to everyone, and it was on them whether or not they'd accept him. I didn't have a good answer as to why some were given a much easier choice than others.


Edit:
Although, if you don't believe in free will, I can see that making this easier to accept (in some ways). It goes against what most Christians believe, of course. Does this have anything to do with your stance on free will?
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22-04-2014, 09:08 AM
RE: Is the Holy Spirit lazy or ineffective?
Butbutbutbut........ you have to *knock.* You haven't been paying attention, have you?


Facepalm

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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22-04-2014, 09:40 AM
RE: Is the Holy Spirit lazy or ineffective?
(22-04-2014 06:39 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Being raised as a good Lutheran, I was told that the only way you can accept God is through the Holy Spirit. He enables you to embrace God... because. It was never really explained to me why this matters.

One thing I can't help but notice is how certain regions seem to be more predisposed to have a certain religion. Sure, there will be people of different religions all over the place, and cultural hubs and large cities will have lots of diversity, but the region on average will be one religion. Now, we know this is mostly because it's how the people were raised and it's what their culture reinforces.

So, the Holy Spirit must be really lazy or otherwise ineffective, since it consistently has trouble overcoming predictable demographics. Does it just not spend as much time in northern Africa, the Middle East, and part of Asia as it does in Europe and the Americas? Why does it have such a hard time? Do those people have "hard hearts" or something? At the end of the day, it seems really unfair to judge a person raised in a Christian country the same as you'd judge someone who was raised from a child to believe that Allah is the one true god while living in a country where apostasy is a capital offense. How is that second person supposed to receive the message in any way that is compelling and not simply dismissed as "a trick from Iblis"?

Whatever it is, the Holy Spirit is having a demonstrably harder time overcoming upbringing and culture.


On a related note, if the Holy Spirit is necessary for this, why did Jesus and the disciples perform all those miracles? The Bible states more than once that they performed miracles so that people would believe:

John 4:48
Quote:48 So Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see [a]signs and wonders, you simply will not believe.

Mark 16:20
Quote:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.


So, which is it? The Holy Spirit alone, or do we need signs and wonders to believe? If it's the former, why all the miracles? If it's the latter, why did all the miracles suddenly stop? The only "miracles" we see now are just random personal experiences people have that feel miraculous (surviving cancer or seeing their baby for the first time), which are... a far cry from walking on water and transmutation.


The Holy spirit really seems to suck at his job, which is impressive, given that its supposed to be part of Almighty God.

Schizo Jebus: Matthew 16:4
"A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-04-2014, 12:30 PM
RE: Is the Holy Spirit lazy or ineffective?
(22-04-2014 09:01 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Thanks.

This is actually the first thing I remember seriously having a problem with back when I still believed. I used to say that I was lucky to be born in a country that worshiped the correct god, and I assumed that God must somehow reveal himself to everyone, and it was on them whether or not they'd accept him. I didn't have a good answer as to why some were given a much easier choice than others.


Edit:
Although, if you don't believe in free will, I can see that making this easier to accept (in some ways). It goes against what most Christians believe, of course. Does this have anything to do with your stance on free will?

In a sense. It also has to do with God's creation of sin and His overall plan.

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22-04-2014, 01:15 PM
RE: Is the Holy Spirit lazy or ineffective?
(22-04-2014 06:39 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  One thing I can't help but notice is how certain regions seem to be more predisposed to have a certain religion. Sure, there will be people of different religions all over the place, and cultural hubs and large cities will have lots of diversity, but the region on average will be one religion. Now, we know this is mostly because it's how the people were raised and it's what their culture reinforces.

So, the Holy Spirit must be really lazy or otherwise ineffective, since it consistently has trouble overcoming predictable demographics. Does it just not spend as much time in northern Africa, the Middle East, and part of Asia as it does in Europe and the Americas? Why does it have such a hard time? Do those people have "hard hearts" or something? At the end of the day, it seems really unfair to judge a person raised in a Christian country the same as you'd judge someone who was raised from a child to believe that Allah is the one true god while living in a country where apostasy is a capital offense. How is that second person supposed to receive the message in any way that is compelling and not simply dismissed as "a trick from Iblis"?

Whatever it is, the Holy Spirit is having a demonstrably harder time overcoming upbringing and culture.

Okay, few notes for understanding what I am going to be addressing:

Remember, I believe that God created sin, God is a God of order, sin has a cause and an effect, and because of all of these combined we see the elect mostly clustered in certain regions.

Sin and its role with order and cause and effect
1)Sin is a major player in God's plan and is the medium for God to bestow His grace on the elect. It is the perpetrator in the plan that creates a purpose for Christ's sacrifice.
2) Because of sin there is paganism, false religions, and religions that falsely claim they have the correct "version" of YHWH.
3) God is a God of order an not confusion. All His creations (through evolution) work in a sense of order that He preordained. All of His planned history has worked in an order than He wanted it to. Everything was set in order that God saw fit; including sin.
4) Because of order, there is a cause an effect in all things. God's boundaries of the natural world gave us order in all forms of science; thus, because of this order, there is a cause and effect throughout life via science/nature. IE - You eat, you poop. You live, you die. You jump, you go into the air. You get tired, you sleep. etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
5) In combination with order and cause and effect, sin also follows an order and has a cause and effect. Sin causes despicable and horrible things and its effect is the enactment of those things towards each other or the natural world. This cause and effect has to exist because of God's planned order for the natural world. IE - Man gets mad or is wronged. Man harbors hate. Man kills person. There is no other way that this could go. There is no intervening by God because God set up life this way through the order He created for the natural world; again, including sin, which creates the hate-murder cause and effect.

Okay, now that's established, let's talk about why you see the elect in certain regions instead of spread out evenly throughout the world. It's actually fairly concise.

Paganism and false religions were created through sin and have to exist because of order and cause and effect. Naturally, these spread throughout the regions that they were originally created or where they had a great popularity. Because of the nature of humanity that God created, we see things such as indoctrination and teaching of these religions. This exists because of sin and is advanced through the cause and effect of these human actions that were ordained by God; they are simply following the order that these traits assume.

The exact same thing is seen for Christianity as far as why it's only in some regions. Since God is a God of order, we see these teachings being passed down generation to generation in the region where the elect populated. Naturally, in regards to order, this makes sense. The majority of God's elect are going to be around other elect which are found in certain regions; likewise, the same is true for the other false religions.

This, of course, is talking about the majority because we do see the elect populating areas that do not have a lot of Christian representation. This is part of God's plan to have some type of elect presence around the world; however, due to the cause and effect of the false religion's region, God does not have a large presence of His beloved there nor will He ever. It's not because He can't; it's because of the order that He set up.

I hope this wasn't too confusing. I tried to be a clear as I could be.

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22-04-2014, 02:10 PM
RE: Is the Holy Spirit lazy or ineffective?
It looks like you're basically saying two things:

1) If we don't have free will, we don't have to worry about human choice in the matter of picking the correct religion. Person X will be Christian, person Y will be Muslim, and person Z will start as Christian and later convert to Wicca (or whatever). This has everything to do with God and "the elect" and nothing to do with human choice.

This "solves" my issue with people having a harder choice than others and basically admits that the Holy Spirit isn't picking everyone. I feel it depressing to contemplate, but Calvinism solves that, so far as I can see.


2) People are largely separated because of God's predisposition to order. I can accept that as a possibility, although with point 1 addressed, it really removes the need to address point 2, in my mind. The only reason I brought up people gravitating toward religion X here and religion Y there was to demonstrate that demographics play a bigger role than the Holy Spirit. If your stated position is "the Holy Spirit doesn't pick everyone, and he likes to lump religions together", then that works for addressing that point.


Again, I find Calvinism depressing to contemplate, assuming the non-elect go to hell, but you did address my concerns with your world view. Thanks.
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22-04-2014, 02:19 PM
RE: Is the Holy Spirit lazy or ineffective?
(22-04-2014 01:15 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(22-04-2014 06:39 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  One thing I can't help but notice is how certain regions seem to be more predisposed to have a certain religion. Sure, there will be people of different religions all over the place, and cultural hubs and large cities will have lots of diversity, but the region on average will be one religion. Now, we know this is mostly because it's how the people were raised and it's what their culture reinforces.

So, the Holy Spirit must be really lazy or otherwise ineffective, since it consistently has trouble overcoming predictable demographics. Does it just not spend as much time in northern Africa, the Middle East, and part of Asia as it does in Europe and the Americas? Why does it have such a hard time? Do those people have "hard hearts" or something? At the end of the day, it seems really unfair to judge a person raised in a Christian country the same as you'd judge someone who was raised from a child to believe that Allah is the one true god while living in a country where apostasy is a capital offense. How is that second person supposed to receive the message in any way that is compelling and not simply dismissed as "a trick from Iblis"?

Whatever it is, the Holy Spirit is having a demonstrably harder time overcoming upbringing and culture.

Okay, few notes for understanding what I am going to be addressing:

Remember, I believe that God created sin, God is a God of order, sin has a cause and an effect, and because of all of these combined we see the elect mostly clustered in certain regions.

Sin and its role with order and cause and effect
1)Sin is a major player in God's plan and is the medium for God to bestow His grace on the elect. It is the perpetrator in the plan that creates a purpose for Christ's sacrifice.
2) Because of sin there is paganism, false religions, and religions that falsely claim they have the correct "version" of YHWH.
3) God is a God of order an not confusion. All His creations (through evolution) work in a sense of order that He preordained. All of His planned history has worked in an order than He wanted it to. Everything was set in order that God saw fit; including sin.
4) Because of order, there is a cause an effect in all things. God's boundaries of the natural world gave us order in all forms of science; thus, because of this order, there is a cause and effect throughout life via science/nature. IE - You eat, you poop. You live, you die. You jump, you go into the air. You get tired, you sleep. etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
5) In combination with order and cause and effect, sin also follows an order and has a cause and effect. Sin causes despicable and horrible things and its effect is the enactment of those things towards each other or the natural world. This cause and effect has to exist because of God's planned order for the natural world. IE - Man gets mad or is wronged. Man harbors hate. Man kills person. There is no other way that this could go. There is no intervening by God because God set up life this way through the order He created for the natural world; again, including sin, which creates the hate-murder cause and effect.

Okay, now that's established, let's talk about why you see the elect in certain regions instead of spread out evenly throughout the world. It's actually fairly concise.

Paganism and false religions were created through sin and have to exist because of order and cause and effect. Naturally, these spread throughout the regions that they were originally created or where they had a great popularity. Because of the nature of humanity that God created, we see things such as indoctrination and teaching of these religions. This exists because of sin and is advanced through the cause and effect of these human actions that were ordained by God; they are simply following the order that these traits assume.

The exact same thing is seen for Christianity as far as why it's only in some regions. Since God is a God of order, we see these teachings being passed down generation to generation in the region where the elect populated. Naturally, in regards to order, this makes sense. The majority of God's elect are going to be around other elect which are found in certain regions; likewise, the same is true for the other false religions.

This, of course, is talking about the majority because we do see the elect populating areas that do not have a lot of Christian representation. This is part of God's plan to have some type of elect presence around the world; however, due to the cause and effect of the false religion's region, God does not have a large presence of His beloved there nor will He ever. It's not because He can't; it's because of the order that He set up.

I hope this wasn't too confusing. I tried to be a clear as I could be.

So, bottom line "it's god's mysterious plan". You peeps can't get past stating there's something mysterious. You can't say why or how you know such thing exists, you just simply "know" there is.
I will never get how you still cling to such set of arbitrary axioms Huh

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