Is the Holy Spirit lazy or ineffective?
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22-04-2014, 04:38 PM
RE: Is the Holy Spirit lazy or ineffective?
(22-04-2014 06:39 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  On a related note, if the Holy Spirit is necessary for this, why did Jesus and the disciples perform all those miracles? The Bible states more than once that they performed miracles so that people would believe:

John 4:48
Quote:48 So Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see [a]signs and wonders, you simply will not believe.

Mark 16:20
Quote:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

So, which is it? The Holy Spirit alone, or do we need signs and wonders to believe? If it's the former, why all the miracles? If it's the latter, why did all the miracles suddenly stop?

I think there's something to be said as far as miracles go, so here's my take. The authors of the canonical gospels seemingly did not agree on whether or not miracles are a necessary prerequisite for faith [and the salvation that comes with it] or even particulary useful for that matter. What in turn the Holy Spirit is, or how it relates to miracles and faith, is a wholly different (and extremely messy) question. There is stark contrast in Luke and John as to whether or not miracles are in any way necessary for people to become believers. Luke emphasizes faith before anything miraculous will happen, and is even explicit in stating that if people won't get the message from things like scripture/prophets, then no miracle is good enough:

Luke 16:31
Quote:“[Abraham] said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

In essence, Luke tries to convey that the less reason (read 'miracles') you have for your faith, the better, and if you don't have faith without miraculous stuff, too bad, there's nothing to be said or done. And then there's that parable about knocking yourself to God (Luke 11:5-13), the lesson of which is that you just have to believe before you can believe.

John in turn explicitly states the reason why he presents his miraculous account: precisely so that people could believe because of it:

John 20:31
Quote:But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

A verse earlier, though, he praises those who believe without miracles:

John 20:29
Quote:Then Jesus told [Thomas], “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

So, John tries to convey that "here's this book for you silly doubters, but glory to those who just believe ...coos."

Now, how the Holy Spirit fits into all this is something I won't touch, since most people seemingly don't even know what the HS is in the first place (much like God), and those who claim they do don't agree with each other's views. (Again much like God)

Τί ἐστιν ἀλήθεια?
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22-04-2014, 05:45 PM
RE: Is the Holy Spirit lazy or ineffective?
Since he/she/it doesn't exist, I'm going to go with ineffective.
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22-04-2014, 06:29 PM
RE: Is the Holy Spirit lazy or ineffective?
(22-04-2014 01:15 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(22-04-2014 06:39 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  One thing I can't help but notice is how certain regions seem to be more predisposed to have a certain religion. Sure, there will be people of different religions all over the place, and cultural hubs and large cities will have lots of diversity, but the region on average will be one religion. Now, we know this is mostly because it's how the people were raised and it's what their culture reinforces.

So, the Holy Spirit must be really lazy or otherwise ineffective, since it consistently has trouble overcoming predictable demographics. Does it just not spend as much time in northern Africa, the Middle East, and part of Asia as it does in Europe and the Americas? Why does it have such a hard time? Do those people have "hard hearts" or something? At the end of the day, it seems really unfair to judge a person raised in a Christian country the same as you'd judge someone who was raised from a child to believe that Allah is the one true god while living in a country where apostasy is a capital offense. How is that second person supposed to receive the message in any way that is compelling and not simply dismissed as "a trick from Iblis"?

Whatever it is, the Holy Spirit is having a demonstrably harder time overcoming upbringing and culture.

Okay, few notes for understanding what I am going to be addressing:

Remember, I believe that God created sin, God is a God of order, sin has a cause and an effect, and because of all of these combined we see the elect mostly clustered in certain regions.

Sin and its role with order and cause and effect
1)Sin is a major player in God's plan and is the medium for God to bestow His grace on the elect. It is the perpetrator in the plan that creates a purpose for Christ's sacrifice.
2) Because of sin there is paganism, false religions, and religions that falsely claim they have the correct "version" of YHWH.
3) God is a God of order an not confusion. All His creations (through evolution) work in a sense of order that He preordained. All of His planned history has worked in an order than He wanted it to. Everything was set in order that God saw fit; including sin.
4) Because of order, there is a cause an effect in all things. God's boundaries of the natural world gave us order in all forms of science; thus, because of this order, there is a cause and effect throughout life via science/nature. IE - You eat, you poop. You live, you die. You jump, you go into the air. You get tired, you sleep. etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
5) In combination with order and cause and effect, sin also follows an order and has a cause and effect. Sin causes despicable and horrible things and its effect is the enactment of those things towards each other or the natural world. This cause and effect has to exist because of God's planned order for the natural world. IE - Man gets mad or is wronged. Man harbors hate. Man kills person. There is no other way that this could go. There is no intervening by God because God set up life this way through the order He created for the natural world; again, including sin, which creates the hate-murder cause and effect.

Okay, now that's established, let's talk about why you see the elect in certain regions instead of spread out evenly throughout the world. It's actually fairly concise.

Paganism and false religions were created through sin and have to exist because of order and cause and effect. Naturally, these spread throughout the regions that they were originally created or where they had a great popularity. Because of the nature of humanity that God created, we see things such as indoctrination and teaching of these religions. This exists because of sin and is advanced through the cause and effect of these human actions that were ordained by God; they are simply following the order that these traits assume.

The exact same thing is seen for Christianity as far as why it's only in some regions. Since God is a God of order, we see these teachings being passed down generation to generation in the region where the elect populated. Naturally, in regards to order, this makes sense. The majority of God's elect are going to be around other elect which are found in certain regions; likewise, the same is true for the other false religions.

This, of course, is talking about the majority because we do see the elect populating areas that do not have a lot of Christian representation. This is part of God's plan to have some type of elect presence around the world; however, due to the cause and effect of the false religion's region, God does not have a large presence of His beloved there nor will He ever. It's not because He can't; it's because of the order that He set up.

I hope this wasn't too confusing. I tried to be a clear as I could be.

And there is absolutely no evidence of any of this. Pure fucking fantasy and delusion. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-04-2014, 11:54 PM
RE: Is the Holy Spirit lazy or ineffective?
(22-04-2014 01:15 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(22-04-2014 06:39 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  One thing I can't help but notice is how certain regions seem to be more predisposed to have a certain religion. Sure, there will be people of different religions all over the place, and cultural hubs and large cities will have lots of diversity, but the region on average will be one religion. Now, we know this is mostly because it's how the people were raised and it's what their culture reinforces.

So, the Holy Spirit must be really lazy or otherwise ineffective, since it consistently has trouble overcoming predictable demographics. Does it just not spend as much time in northern Africa, the Middle East, and part of Asia as it does in Europe and the Americas? Why does it have such a hard time? Do those people have "hard hearts" or something? At the end of the day, it seems really unfair to judge a person raised in a Christian country the same as you'd judge someone who was raised from a child to believe that Allah is the one true god while living in a country where apostasy is a capital offense. How is that second person supposed to receive the message in any way that is compelling and not simply dismissed as "a trick from Iblis"?

Whatever it is, the Holy Spirit is having a demonstrably harder time overcoming upbringing and culture.

Okay, few notes for understanding what I am going to be addressing:

Remember, I believe that God created sin, God is a God of order, sin has a cause and an effect, and because of all of these combined we see the elect mostly clustered in certain regions.

Sin and its role with order and cause and effect
1)Sin is a major player in God's plan and is the medium for God to bestow His grace on the elect. It is the perpetrator in the plan that creates a purpose for Christ's sacrifice.
2) Because of sin there is paganism, false religions, and religions that falsely claim they have the correct "version" of YHWH.
3) God is a God of order an not confusion. All His creations (through evolution) work in a sense of order that He preordained. All of His planned history has worked in an order than He wanted it to. Everything was set in order that God saw fit; including sin.
4) Because of order, there is a cause an effect in all things. God's boundaries of the natural world gave us order in all forms of science; thus, because of this order, there is a cause and effect throughout life via science/nature. IE - You eat, you poop. You live, you die. You jump, you go into the air. You get tired, you sleep. etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
5) In combination with order and cause and effect, sin also follows an order and has a cause and effect. Sin causes despicable and horrible things and its effect is the enactment of those things towards each other or the natural world. This cause and effect has to exist because of God's planned order for the natural world. IE - Man gets mad or is wronged. Man harbors hate. Man kills person. There is no other way that this could go. There is no intervening by God because God set up life this way through the order He created for the natural world; again, including sin, which creates the hate-murder cause and effect.

Okay, now that's established, let's talk about why you see the elect in certain regions instead of spread out evenly throughout the world. It's actually fairly concise.

Paganism and false religions were created through sin and have to exist because of order and cause and effect. Naturally, these spread throughout the regions that they were originally created or where they had a great popularity. Because of the nature of humanity that God created, we see things such as indoctrination and teaching of these religions. This exists because of sin and is advanced through the cause and effect of these human actions that were ordained by God; they are simply following the order that these traits assume.

The exact same thing is seen for Christianity as far as why it's only in some regions. Since God is a God of order, we see these teachings being passed down generation to generation in the region where the elect populated. Naturally, in regards to order, this makes sense. The majority of God's elect are going to be around other elect which are found in certain regions; likewise, the same is true for the other false religions.

This, of course, is talking about the majority because we do see the elect populating areas that do not have a lot of Christian representation. This is part of God's plan to have some type of elect presence around the world; however, due to the cause and effect of the false religion's region, God does not have a large presence of His beloved there nor will He ever. It's not because He can't; it's because of the order that He set up.

I hope this wasn't too confusing. I tried to be a clear as I could be.

If it's all gods doing with regard to heaven and hell, what's the deal with god not coming back until his word has reached the four corners of the Earth? Seems an aweful waste of time and money now doesn't it?

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
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