Is the double slit experiment the mind game with Holy Spirit?
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01-10-2016, 07:30 AM
RE: Is the double slit experiment the mind game with Holy Spirit?
(01-10-2016 03:31 AM)theBorg Wrote:  
(01-10-2016 03:27 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  Wanna bet?
No, the moderators would be against any money transfers.

That is not true. Facepalm

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-10-2016, 08:22 AM
RE: Is the double slit experiment the mind game with Holy Spirit?
(01-10-2016 07:05 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(01-10-2016 05:07 AM)theBorg Wrote:  Some person is not so sensitive to a small sin. The strongest sin is the suicide, please do not do it.

And now we start to get into the ugly side of aggressive Christian beliefs... well, start for Borgy, the rest of us have been immersed in that ugly side for a while... because such hard-and-fast rules do not fit well with a messy reality.

Is not committing suicide generally a good rule to live by? Yes. (By definition.)

Is it a hard-and-fast, worst-thing-ever, avoid-at-all-costs sort of rule? No.

Let me tell you a true story about several people who thought it was, in conflict with several people who thought it wasn't. (This recently aired on Dogma Debate, where I heard it, but has been public in other formats for a while now. I'm working from memory so I might get some details wrong.)

(EDIT: Also, a warning I should have included when I first posted this. The following story is unsettling. You might wish to not read it. The first person to respond to it said...

(01-10-2016 07:14 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  That was possibly the most horrific thing I have ever read. Sadcryface

... so proceed cautiously.)

An elderly man is coming to the end of his life. A lifetime of labor has given him such severe arthritis that he is in severe pain every day. He also has other conditions, such as diabetes, that require him to take medication to preserve his life. After much careful consideration of the matter, he decides that he has had a full and rich life, has little prospect of a rich life in the future given his incurable medical condition, and decides that it is time to pass on. He gathers his mother and daughter to his side and discusses matters with them. They regret that he's going to die, but agree to honor his wishes to do so with a minimum of pain, and a maximum of dignity and self-determination. These, by the way, are all Christians.

Then the story becomes one of hellish torture, because we've got other Christians involved here -- ones who believe as you do, that suicide is one of the worst things ever, and worse, they actually have legal power over this family. The polity they live in has laws where anyone who assists in a suicide is guilty of murder, subject to all the criminal penalties attached to murder. This includes simply providing the person taking their own life with the implements to do so. Furthermore, anyone suspected of being suicidal is committed, against their will, to psychiatric care... essentially put in a cage where they are not able to hurt themselves.

Because the elderly man does not wish to land his family in prison, and because he does not want to be separated from them and spend his last days in a padded cell, he's stuck with various forms of ending his life that do not involve suicide. He goes into hospice care, which means taking him off all medical support and trying to keep him comfortable while he waits to die. He stops taking all the drugs keeping him alive, leaving him only a morphine prescription for the pain, which he is capable of self-administering and allowed to self-administer. He signs several documents, supposedly legally binding, which indicate that he is not to be hospitalized or resuscitated and that no life-extending medical procedures are to be performed on him. He is very much wanting to avoid both the personal hardship and agony of, for example, going through a month bedridden and trying not to gag on a breathing tube, and also spare his survivors from the financial burden of an extended end-of-life hospitalization. He signs more documents that give his daughter, a professional nurse, final power to make medical decisions on his behalf when he is incapacitated, and gets her and his wife to promise that they'll honor his wishes.

Already this is sub-optimal. The dying process is still likely to be extremely painful when it occurs naturally. Methods exist to make it painless, but they have been denied to this man who everyone agrees does not have long to live. We literally do not treat dogs this badly. But it gets worse.

A temporary improvement in the man's condition causes him to be removed from hospice care. It gets worse again, he re-enrolls, but this time he does not receive a morphine prescription. A doctor does issue the prescription, but the company running the hospice program hides it and doesn't even let the family know about it, because a particularly vile woman in the company had taken a personal disliking to the man. She thought his readiness to die constituted a "negative attitude", and failing to persuade him otherwise she became frustrated and vindictive. When before he had been able to relax, to a degree, now he is in physical agony. His daughter's a medical professional and knows perfectly well that her father's supposed to be getting morphine, and is fighting hard to get it legally.

One day the father's physical agony becomes worse than ever before, and he begs his daughter to do something, anything for the pain. They still have a vial of his old morphine prescription. Ignoring the law (or at least she thinks it's against the law; she doesn't know that the doctors prescribed him morphine again, because the hospice company withheld that information) she gets the vial of morphine and brings it to her father. She hands it to him while she turns to get the measuring instruments to measure out a dose. When she turns back, she discovers her father has swallowed the entire vial.

The daughter has no idea how much morphine was left in the vial and doesn't know if it was a lethal dose, but she knows that her father wants to die and she has promised to honor his wishes. So rather than call emergency services, she instead places a call to the hospice nurse who has been making house calls, telling her what happens. She comes out to monitor the situation and see if there's anything she can do to provide him with additional comfort in his last hours.

After a few minutes, the man's pain subsides. He lies in bed, weak but lucid and the most pain-free he's been throughout this entire ordeal. He and his daughter and wife talk at length about things they've never talked about before. He seems at peace and restful. The nurse arrives, watches the situation, and about an hour after the man took the morphine she steps out to to check in with her employer.

Her employer, the hospice company, immediately calls an ambulance. This is because suicide is not allowed as part of hospice care, not where they live.

The paramedics are a bit confused about whether to administer life-saving medical care. The daughter explains matters to them, but is flustered by their unexpected arrival. She describes giving her father the morphine, by which she means that she handed him the vial, but which they take as meaning that she administered the dosage to him. (I don't know if your translation software will get this right, so I'll be clear. "Giving", in this context, could cover either of those things.) Because they see this as an assisted suicide, equivalent to murder, they call the police.

The daughter is arrested, and entirely against his will the man is rushed to the hospital. His condition is monitored and he seems to be improving, but the police are looking over the doctors' shoulders and they feel they have to do everything to save his life, despite supposedly legally binding documents that say they shouldn't. Because he's suspected of attempting suicide, the man doesn't get to make his medical decisions. Because the daughter's been arrested for supposedly trying to kill him, she doesn't get to make the decisions either. It falls to the man's wife. The police tell her that her daughter will face far worse criminal penalties if her husband dies as a result of this than if he doesn't, basically the difference (in their eyes) between murder and attempted murder. Fearing for her safety, the wife agrees to let the doctors save her husband's life, choosing to help her daughter and violate her husband's wishes.

Throughout all of this, the man is weak but lucid, and is pleading with everyone who will listen to not let the police do anything to his daughter, and also not to save his life.

The doctors administer harsh drugs designed to purge the morphine from the man's system. The pain returns and he reacts negatively to the drugs. Six days later, if I'm remembering the story right, he dies. He spent his last days gagging on a breathing tube while the pain of the arthritis returns full-force. The drugs destroyed his digestive system and he suffered from severe diarrhea while strapped into a bed to prevent him from hurting himself. It was particularly acidic, and he died with acid burns covering most of his legs and back.

The county coroner, who is a Christian who believes, as you do, that suicide is one of the worst sins possible, is a politician running for higher office. His top issue is to defend the "sanctity of life". He wants to make an example to help his campaign. Despite plenty of medical evidence that the man didn't die from a morphine overdose, but rather from the treatment administered to reverse the overdose, he fills out the death certificate with the cause of death listed as homicide. His daughter is charged with his murder and put on trial.

No one ever learns whether the man was trying to kill himself with an overdose, or was simply so eager to take his medicine that he didn't wait for it to be properly measured.

All of the people in this story are (or were) Christians.

Is suicide a bad thing? In most cases, yes.

Is it the worst thing possible? No. There are much, much, much worse things than that.

Yep, morality is subjective and can't be defined by a book older than 2000 years with extremely arcane rules.

When Christians try to force reality to conform to their ancient myth, horrible suffering occurs.

They feel morally justified to ignore the suffering their ancient book mandates, because gawd. Facepalm

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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01-10-2016, 11:17 AM
RE: Is the double slit experiment the mind game with Holy Spirit?
(01-10-2016 08:22 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  They feel morally justified to ignore the suffering their ancient book mandates, because gawd. Facepalm

When they're not celebrating it, instead.

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I know, because there have been a finite number of Christians throughout history, and they have done a finite number of things in their lives, that there must be (for the moment) a bottom depth to which Christianity has caused people to sink. But I have yet to find it.
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01-10-2016, 12:41 PM
RE: Is the double slit experiment the mind game with Holy Spirit?
(01-10-2016 06:00 AM)unfogged Wrote:  ......Bragging that you have a 0% warning level is just another indication that you never bother to learn how anything works, ......
So if you lie, the True God will burn you alive?
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01-10-2016, 12:43 PM
RE: Is the double slit experiment the mind game with Holy Spirit?
"Suicide is the worst sin!"
"Well...what is a sin?"
"Sin is a thing you would rather die than do!"
"......"
"......"
" So I'd rather die than die?"
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01-10-2016, 12:45 PM
RE: Is the double slit experiment the mind game with Holy Spirit?
(01-10-2016 12:41 PM)theBorg Wrote:  
(01-10-2016 06:00 AM)unfogged Wrote:  ......Bragging that you have a 0% warning level is just another indication that you never bother to learn how anything works, ......
So if you lie, the True God will burn you alive?

No, mostly because such a thing doesn't seem to exist. Drinking Beverage

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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01-10-2016, 01:00 PM
RE: Is the double slit experiment the mind game with Holy Spirit?
(01-10-2016 12:45 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(01-10-2016 12:41 PM)theBorg Wrote:  So if you lie, the True God will burn you alive?

No, mostly because such a thing doesn't seem to exist. Drinking Beverage
Then all his sentences have no value.
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01-10-2016, 01:10 PM
RE: Is the double slit experiment the mind game with Holy Spirit?
(01-10-2016 07:05 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(01-10-2016 05:07 AM)theBorg Wrote:  Some person is not so sensitive to a small sin. The strongest sin is the suicide, please do not do it.

And now we start to get into the ugly side ............
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01-10-2016, 01:15 PM
RE: Is the double slit experiment the mind game with Holy Spirit?
(01-10-2016 12:41 PM)theBorg Wrote:  
(01-10-2016 06:00 AM)unfogged Wrote:  ......Bragging that you have a 0% warning level is just another indication that you never bother to learn how anything works, ......
So if you lie, the True God will burn you alive?

WTF?

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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01-10-2016, 01:18 PM
RE: Is the double slit experiment the mind game with Holy Spirit?
(01-10-2016 01:00 PM)theBorg Wrote:  
(01-10-2016 12:45 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  No, mostly because such a thing doesn't seem to exist. Drinking Beverage
Then all his sentences have no value.
No sorry but your delusion not being real doesn't make what anyone else has to say have less value. I'd ask how your dumb ass even came to that conclusion however I frankly don't really care enough to drag that particular lack of idiocy.

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