Is the future predetermined?
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09-03-2017, 11:26 PM
RE: Is the future predetermined?
(09-03-2017 02:14 PM)Billanja Wrote:  Yes, to a certain degree I agree on that. But here's the thing were it gets tricky. No matter if you think you are predetermined or not, you act like you do have a choise anyway. As long as you think it matters that you are the one who is in charge, you will take responsibilty for your actions. And if you think you're not in charge, you deny responisibility but that does not mean you're not getting arrested if you break the law and get caught.

Yet, one does not preclude the other. Not everyone who adheres to a non-predetermined outlook will take responsibility for their actions; that's what celebrity lawyers are for. Free will and self determination, illusory or not, is one of the base assumptions at the foundation of jurisprudence.

Beliefs inform actions, and beliefs matter. Not just your own, but the belief of others; nobody operates in a vacuum. Even if an individual adheres to the belief in predetermination, if he's surrounded by a society built around free will (illusory or otherwise), that knowledge has an affect on their actions as well.



(09-03-2017 02:14 PM)Billanja Wrote:  If you think or totally believe your actions are predestined, you will still have to deal with secular laws when you disobey them and get caught. And if you think you are responsible you also have to deal with those. And what is the better choise? Taking responsibility or not? I think IF you do take it, you can change your ways. The other way you are bound to be runned and ruled by whatever it is you think is controlling your actions, without being able to change a thing.


Yet, neuroscience has shown us that our brains come to conclusions and decisions seconds before we are consciously aware of them. That 'choice' to take responsibility for your action or not doesn't appear to be a conscious choice. Take a depressed person contemplating suicide, if they choose to kill themselves, do they have free will? Even if application of anti-depressant medication to change the chemical balance in their brains would lead to a different conclusion? Was that decision truely an application of free will? Even if the drug was administered unknowingly? Take that a step back; if you do not control your own brains' decision making processes because you do not actively control your biochemistry, what does? Does anything?

Free will appears to be nothing more than the illusion of agency, an illusion widely shared and whose belief in shapes society at large; much akin to religion. Did it matter to the Spanish Inquisition the archaeological support for the ascension of Christ? No. All that mattered is that they would torture and kill you for heresy if you disagreed with them. Popular opinion doesn't make something true or factually accurate, but a lynch mob can kill you all the same; act accordingly.

Assuming, of course, that you have the free will to do so. Wink

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10-03-2017, 01:37 AM
RE: Is the future predetermined?
But as to my own subjective view on the matter...

I think that the past dictates the present, but that in the moment things are probabilistic; therefore the present is not set or exactly predictable.

Free will is a useful illusion, but the knowledge of just how little control we have over our genetics, consciousness, and circumstance should inform our decisions. Jurisprudence and the rule of law is important, but it should be colored with the empathy and compassion born of the knowledge of just how illusory free will is. Rehabilitation is preferable to punitive reprisals; vengeance should have no place. A serial killer still needs to be removed from society for the safety of everyone else, but such a person is the product of many things beyond their conscious control; and the product of such an uncontrollable situation is pitiable more so than anything else.

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10-03-2017, 05:05 AM
RE: Is the future predetermined?
(09-03-2017 11:26 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Yet, neuroscience has shown us that our brains come to conclusions and decisions seconds before we are consciously aware of them. That 'choice' to take responsibility for your action or not doesn't appear to be a conscious choice.

Aren't the unconscious choosers us too?
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10-03-2017, 05:06 AM
RE: Is the future predetermined?
(09-03-2017 08:44 PM)treefireguy Wrote:  Of course it isn't predetermined. That's absurd.

Getting to the future seems like an awful lot of work if it really IS predetermined....

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10-03-2017, 05:16 AM
RE: Is the future predetermined?
(10-03-2017 05:05 AM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  
(09-03-2017 11:26 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Yet, neuroscience has shown us that our brains come to conclusions and decisions seconds before we are consciously aware of them. That 'choice' to take responsibility for your action or not doesn't appear to be a conscious choice.

Aren't the unconscious choosers us too?

In a sense, yes. But if we lack control, then we have no agency. If there is no agency, how does one assign culpability?

Would we consider a sleepwalker to have agency, direct control, over what they did while sleep walking? Would we judge their actions the same as those of someone fully awake? Typically not.

The kicker is noticing that, even when we are fully awake and conscious, we're more alike to a sleepwalker than we might be comfortable with admitting. Certainly more so than our current theory of jurisprudence is built to allow for.

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10-03-2017, 05:20 AM
RE: Is the future predetermined?
I can predict the future, it's easy.

If I go out and buy a bottle of rum, and drink it, I'll get drunk.

I also foresee the following morning. Blink

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10-03-2017, 05:23 AM
RE: Is the future predetermined?
(10-03-2017 05:16 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(10-03-2017 05:05 AM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  Aren't the unconscious choosers us too?

In a sense, yes. But if we lack control, then we have no agency. If there is no agency, how does one assign culpability?

Would we consider a sleepwalker to have agency, direct control, over what they did while sleep walking? Would we judge their actions the same as those of someone fully awake? Typically not.

The kicker is noticing that, even when we are fully awake and conscious, we're more alike to a sleepwalker than we might be comfortable with admitting. Certainly more so than our current theory of jurisprudence is built to allow for.

You think we lack control when we act automatically, even though we could intervene and exercise our "free won't" if we wanted? Remember, in most waking situations we still exercise an overseeing awareness, even if we let our habits do most of the heavy lifting.

In contrast, a sleepwalker is missing that overseeing awareness because that part of his brain is switched off (the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex). So you are not dealing with a whole person at all. Sleepy
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10-03-2017, 05:27 AM
RE: Is the future predetermined?
(10-03-2017 05:23 AM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  You think we lack control when we act automatically, even though we could intervene and exercise our "free won't" if we wanted?

What about this idea in fast paced combat, say fighter pilot against fighter pilot?

When I play fast drum rudiments they happen faster than I can think. I have to think in large groups. The body does the work.

I'm no brain expert. In fact I'm, in the market for one.

An expert.

Not a brain goddamnit!

Although it would be nice...


Anyway. Thoughts?

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10-03-2017, 05:31 AM
RE: Is the future predetermined?
(10-03-2017 05:27 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(10-03-2017 05:23 AM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  You think we lack control when we act automatically, even though we could intervene and exercise our "free won't" if we wanted?

What about this idea in fast paced combat, say fighter pilot against fighter pilot?

When I play fast drum rudiments they happen faster than I can think. I have to think in large groups. The body does the work.

I'm no brain expert. In fact I'm, in the market for one.

An expert.

Not a brain goddamnit!

Although it would be nice...


Anyway. Thoughts?

We build up certain habits through long periods of conscious efforts. We are therefore largely responsible for those habits, even when they are working automatically.

No doubt consciousness works much slower than automatic responses. That's why we have to apologize as much as we do.

Blush
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10-03-2017, 05:36 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2017 05:41 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Is the future predetermined?
(10-03-2017 05:23 AM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  
(10-03-2017 05:16 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  In a sense, yes. But if we lack control, then we have no agency. If there is no agency, how does one assign culpability?

Would we consider a sleepwalker to have agency, direct control, over what they did while sleep walking? Would we judge their actions the same as those of someone fully awake? Typically not.

The kicker is noticing that, even when we are fully awake and conscious, we're more alike to a sleepwalker than we might be comfortable with admitting. Certainly more so than our current theory of jurisprudence is built to allow for.

You think we lack control when we act automatically, even though we could intervene and exercise our "free won't" if we wanted? Remember, in most waking situations we still exercise an overseeing awareness, even if we let our habits do most of the heavy lifting.

In contrast, a sleepwalker is missing that overseeing awareness because that part of his brain is switched off (the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex). So you are not dealing with a whole person at all. Sleepy

But we're back to that prefrontal cortex arriving at decisions seconds before we're conscious of it, in effect, making decisions without us being aware of it. The idea of free-will is a rationalization of what just happened, applying a post hoc justification to a decision arrived at without direct conscious control over. Its a coping mechanism, a way our brain fills in the gaps of our experience; much like how you don't notice that the light entering your cornea is upside down or that you have a hole in your perception that you otherwise almost never notice. Because your brain is really good at hiding it and favors continuity over accuracy. Free-will is the label we have for this illusion of continuity vis-à-vis our decision making.

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