Is the future predetermined?
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10-03-2017, 05:48 AM
RE: Is the future predetermined?
(10-03-2017 05:31 AM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  We build up certain habits through long periods of conscious efforts. We are therefore largely responsible for those habits, even when they are working automatically.

Thanks for responding.

I understand your meaning. In fact both you and EK.

I read the above and relate it to my teachers. In the army let's say a drill sergeant.

Others are then responsible for our movement...

I don't know where one begins and the other ends? Blink

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10-03-2017, 06:38 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2017 06:54 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Is the future predetermined?
(10-03-2017 05:48 AM)Banjo Wrote:  I don't know where one begins and the other ends? Blink

That's the rub, isn't it? When does life begin? Where does our agency, and thus our culpability, start? How far back does causality extend? How far back should we recognize it? Is light a particle, a wave, both, or neither?

Reality is awash in gradients that resit our desire to compartmentalize everything into distinct objects.

[Image: example2.png]

Where exactly does it cease to be red and start to be blue? Where exactly is purple or violet?

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10-03-2017, 06:48 AM
RE: Is the future predetermined?
(10-03-2017 06:38 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Minestrone is awash in ingredients that are hard to resist, and once cooked can't be compartmentalized into distinct objects.

[Image: giphy.gif]

Making it understandable, mine. Thumbsup

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10-03-2017, 07:25 AM
RE: Is the future predetermined?
(10-03-2017 05:36 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  ...
But we're back to that prefrontal cortex arriving at decisions seconds before we're conscious of it, in effect, making decisions without us being aware of it.
...

Not even that. A creature probably only needs a rudimentary hypothalamus to be able to react without a conscious monitoring system to alert it to the fact that it has reacted.

In fact, in the case of very simple life-forms it doesn't require even that. e.g. a drummer.

Angel

Sorry, Banjo.

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10-03-2017, 07:39 AM
RE: Is the future predetermined?
(10-03-2017 07:25 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Not even that. A creature probably only needs a rudimentary hypothalamus to be able to react without a conscious monitoring system to alert it to the fact that it has reacted.

In fact, in the case of very simple life-forms it doesn't require even that. e.g. a drummer.

Angel

Sorry, Banjo.

Tongue

Could be worse. Could be a bass player.

What's long, hard and fucks bass players?

Primary school.

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10-03-2017, 12:07 PM
RE: Is the future predetermined?
(10-03-2017 05:36 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  But we're back to that prefrontal cortex arriving at decisions seconds before we're conscious of it, in effect, making decisions without us being aware of it.

But in fact we are not making unconscious or habitual decisions *at every moment*. When we are not reacting, we have time to reflect consciously on how we performed. That's when we practice new behaviors in our heads or modify old ones. We therefore still have the ability to make conscious choices, just at other times than we typically think we do.
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10-03-2017, 12:27 PM
RE: Is the future predetermined?
(10-03-2017 12:07 PM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  
(10-03-2017 05:36 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  But we're back to that prefrontal cortex arriving at decisions seconds before we're conscious of it, in effect, making decisions without us being aware of it.

But in fact we are not making unconscious or habitual decisions *at every moment*. When we are not reacting, we have time to reflect consciously on how we performed. That's when we practice new behaviors in our heads or modify old ones. We therefore still have the ability to make conscious choices, just at other times than we typically think we do.

Sure. But while you are contemplating A or B, seconds before you realize which one you've chosen, your brain has (unbeknownst to yourself) already made it's decision. It can be argued that you influenced it, but how true is that? Just how much control do you have over your own biochemistry? What really can take responsibility for that final push, the last chemical reaction or firing synapse, that tilted the scale of decision to one over the other? Can you? How influenced was your chemistry (and thus, your decision making process) by your last meal? The people around you? The quality of air? Whether or not you were holding a warm cup (I shit you not)?

Reality, once again, doesn't appear to appreciate our attempts to box it in.

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10-03-2017, 12:46 PM
RE: Is the future predetermined?
(10-03-2017 12:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  But while you are contemplating A or B, seconds before you realize which one you've chosen, your brain has (unbeknownst to yourself) already made it's decision.

I *am* my brain, so I don't know what you're talking about.
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10-03-2017, 01:02 PM
RE: Is the future predetermined?
(09-03-2017 11:26 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Yet, neuroscience has shown us that our brains come to conclusions and decisions seconds before we are consciously aware of them. That 'choice' to take responsibility for your action or not doesn't appear to be a conscious choice. Take a depressed person contemplating suicide, if they choose to kill themselves, do they have free will? Even if application of anti-depressant medication to change the chemical balance in their brains would lead to a different conclusion? Was that decision truely an application of free will? Even if the drug was administered unknowingly? Take that a step back; if you do not control your own brains' decision making processes because you do not actively control your biochemistry, what does? Does anything?

I have heard Sam Harris and Rupert Sheldrake refering to such studies in the Joe Rogan podcast. I don't have seen the scientific papers yet that really prove that that is the case. Mind to give me a link to them? That would be great.

And once again, it doesn't matter if we have what some call free-will or not. What matters is that we think we have and our secular laws are based on that assumption, like you said.

If it is true that we really, actually are not in controll of our actions, like those mysterious studies seem to indicate, then we must change the laws accordingly, I think. Which would mean: No more prisons. Only mental institutions for those who break the laws. I don't know how the privately runned prisons in the USA can survive unter such new (real, not fake) actual scientifc discoveries.

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10-03-2017, 02:21 PM
RE: Is the future predetermined?
(10-03-2017 12:46 PM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  I *am* my brain, so I don't know what you're talking about.

What if you're not who you say you are? Wink

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