Is the shit going to hit the fan in Spain??
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09-11-2015, 10:49 AM
RE: Is the shit going to hit the fan in Spain??
(09-11-2015 10:19 AM)yakherder Wrote:  
(09-11-2015 10:14 AM)cjlr Wrote:  I don't think "once thirty-five years ago and once twenty years ago" is really all the time, is it?

Yes. At least as compared to other states and provinces in stable, first world countries. Of course, I'm biased as a foreigner who doesn't give a damn about what I consider to be quaint local politics Tongue The other hot issue is the protection of the French language. Heck, they can change the official language to Esperanto for all I care.

Constitutional wrangling is hardly unique; Portugal, Spain, France, Belgium, Italy, UK, and Denmark all have active autonomist and separatist factions, and that's just in western Europe.

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09-11-2015, 11:22 AM
RE: Is the shit going to hit the fan in Spain??
(09-11-2015 09:46 AM)cjlr Wrote:  As small-minded as their Quebecois and Scottish compatriots. And given that likewise, support for independence might barely crack 50%... That's a recipe for a bitter, divided society no matter what happens. Quebec is only now coming out of that hangover.

The Spanish constitution is a relic and a more federal model would solve a lot of people's problems. Not that that's any likelier to change.

Yes but you have been shown to talk through your arse on such matters and not actually know the first thing about the politics of the country that you have an opinion about.

14 months on after out little debate about Scottish independence where you believed that a back-bencher with absolutely no power (Gordon Brown) was going to deliver the promises he made to the Scottish people and disagreed with me when I said that it would not happen.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid650482

Guess what, the vow was broken. The very next day instead of pushing through a motion giving Scotland more powers as they promised, Westminster started back-tracking. Cameron came out and talked about English votes for English laws and have now made Scottish MPs second class MPs. They even started to remove powers, such as the right to object to fracking.

[Image: vow2a.jpg]

What's wrong with self determination? Are you wanting a a single world presidency or something while calling anyone that dares disagree with your uninformed opinion small minded?

So enough with the bullshit. If the people decide that they want independence then they'll have independence. If Spain tries to use armed conflict then they will immediately lose any chance of regaining Catalonia. At best they will become an occupying force in a foreign country. The EU will most certainly have something to say about that. Spain are doing everything possible at the moment to lose Catalonia. They should not be trying to block the will of the people. If they want any chance they should be capitulating and trying to win back the voters. But the fact that they are denying the Catalan's right to self determination tells us that the Catalans are justified in their choice.

I am proud of the Catalans right now.
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09-11-2015, 12:01 PM (This post was last modified: 09-11-2015 12:10 PM by cjlr.)
RE: Is the shit going to hit the fan in Spain??
(09-11-2015 11:22 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(09-11-2015 09:46 AM)cjlr Wrote:  As small-minded as their Quebecois and Scottish compatriots. And given that likewise, support for independence might barely crack 50%... That's a recipe for a bitter, divided society no matter what happens. Quebec is only now coming out of that hangover.

The Spanish constitution is a relic and a more federal model would solve a lot of people's problems. Not that that's any likelier to change.

Yes but you have been shown to talk through your arse on such matters and not actually know the first thing about the politics of the country that you have an opinion about.

Citation needed.

(09-11-2015 11:22 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  14 months on after out little debate about Scottish independence where you believed that a back-bencher with absolutely no power (Gordon Brown) was going to deliver the promises he made to the Scottish people and disagreed with me when I said that it would not happen.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid650482

That is a very... spirited reimagination of what I said. I am struggling to chalk it up to genuine misapprehension.

(09-11-2015 11:22 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Guess what, the vow was broken. The very next day instead of pushing through a motion giving Scotland more powers as they promised, Westminster started back-tracking. Cameron came out and talked about English votes for English laws and have now made Scottish MPs second class MPs. They even started to remove powers, such as the right to object to fracking.

And interesting definition of back-tracking.

But, as to a question that's actually potentially interesting: if the other parts of the UK have local devolution, why shouldn't England? Perhaps you feel that Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Irish MPs should have legislative powers over England that their fellow English MPs lack over their respective home constituencies? That's democratic?
(note: that is sarcasm. I do not think you actually think that, nor that you support an undemocratic inequality of powers. But I am genuinely curious as to how you think the constitutional arrangements should fall out)

(09-11-2015 11:22 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  What's wrong with self determination?

Nothing.

What's wrong with it as practised on September 18, 2014 in Scotland?

(09-11-2015 11:22 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Are you wanting a a single world presidency or something while calling anyone that dares disagree with your uninformed opinion small minded?

Oh, it is making up ludicrous shit about each other time?

I heard that you once killed and ate seventeen kittens in front of a room full of schoolchildren.

(09-11-2015 11:22 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  So enough with the bullshit. If the people decide that they want independence then they'll have independence.

I'm curious as to when you think I said otherwise.

(09-11-2015 11:22 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  If Spain tries to use armed conflict then they will immediately lose any chance of regaining Catalonia.

Unilateral secession by force is already crossing that line. Why does that get a pass when it's one side doing it and not the other?

(09-11-2015 11:22 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  At best they will become an occupying force in a foreign country. The EU will most certainly have something to say about that.

In what fantasy universe is military occupation being considered?

(09-11-2015 11:22 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Spain are doing everything possible at the moment to lose Catalonia. They should not be trying to block the will of the people.

Funny thing about "the will of the people"; Catalan opinion is deeply divided. The most recent elections returned an nearly equal split in popular vote. Electoral polling shows a nearly equal split. Campaigning on that kind of polarisation and identity politics are not healthy. There can be no clear line drawn as to the "will of the people" there. If it is not democratic to force ~50% of the population to remain in a state they don't wish to remain in it is just as undemocratic to force ~50% of the population to leave a state they do wish to remain in.

I think unilateral constitutional brinkmanship is an extremely bad idea no matter who's doing it.

(09-11-2015 11:22 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  If they want any chance they should be capitulating and trying to win back the voters. But the fact that they are denying the Catalan's right to self determination tells us that the Catalans are justified in their choice.

I am proud of the Catalans right now.

Unilateral secession is illegal under Spanish law. I do not think ignoring inconvenient laws you don't like at any given moment is a good precedent.

And I literally just said upthread that I think some serious renegotiation would do everybody concerned a world of good.

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09-11-2015, 12:28 PM
RE: Is the shit going to hit the fan in Spain??
(09-11-2015 12:01 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-11-2015 11:22 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Yes but you have been shown to talk through your arse on such matters and not actually know the first thing about the politics of the country that you have an opinion about.

Citation needed.

Link provided earlier if you care to read through the thread where you posted.

(09-11-2015 12:01 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-11-2015 11:22 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  14 months on after out little debate about Scottish independence where you believed that a back-bencher with absolutely no power (Gordon Brown) was going to deliver the promises he made to the Scottish people and disagreed with me when I said that it would not happen.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid650482

That is a very... spirited reimagination of what I said. I am struggling to chalk it up to genuine misapprehension.

Ah cognitive dissonance, gotcha. That explains your judgemental tone regarding 'small mindedness'.


(09-11-2015 12:01 PM)cjlr Wrote:  And interesting definition of back-tracking.

Token gestures. Hardly the full fiscal autonomy that they were suggesting with the vow. Gordon Brown even used the phrase "home rule" to describe what would follow a no vote.

(09-11-2015 12:01 PM)cjlr Wrote:  But, as to a question that's actually potentially interesting: if the other parts of the UK have local devolution, why shouldn't England? Perhaps you feel that Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Irish MPs should have legislative powers over England that their fellow English MPs lack over their respective home constituencies? That's democratic?
(note: that is sarcasm. I do not think you actually think that, nor that you support an undemocratic inequality of powers. But I am genuinely curious as to how you think the constitutional arrangements should fall out)

Federalism.

The way they have set it up at the moment, there is a real danger of Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs from not being able to vote on matters that affect their respective budgets.


(09-11-2015 12:01 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-11-2015 11:22 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  What's wrong with self determination?

Nothing.

What's wrong with it as practised on September 18, 2014 in Scotland?

We didn't get self determination. Instead we got another government focused on satisfying voters in a region of another country.

Until we forced the issue by voting for the SNP into Westminster and then the other MPs started arguing that they had no legitimacy being there because they wanted to break up the union.
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09-11-2015, 01:16 PM
RE: Is the shit going to hit the fan in Spain??
(09-11-2015 12:28 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(09-11-2015 12:01 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Citation needed.

Link provided earlier if you care to read through the thread where you posted.

And I disagree with your interpretation of my posts. So where does that leave us?
("oh, it's totally in there somewhere" is not much of a citation)

(09-11-2015 12:28 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(09-11-2015 12:01 PM)cjlr Wrote:  That is a very... spirited reimagination of what I said. I am struggling to chalk it up to genuine misapprehension.

Ah cognitive dissonance, gotcha. That explains your judgemental tone regarding 'small mindedness'.

1. You say I said X.
2. I do not think I said X. I tell you I did not say X.
3. You say that's cognitive dissonance.

You're going to have to help me out on this one. I can't for the life of me follow the reasoning behind that conclusion.

Dressing up in the flag to sell grievance identity politics is politically small-minded. I haven't changed my opinion on that.

(09-11-2015 12:28 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(09-11-2015 12:01 PM)cjlr Wrote:  And interesting definition of back-tracking.

Token gestures. Hardly the full fiscal autonomy that they were suggesting with the vow. Gordon Brown even used the phrase "home rule" to describe what would follow a no vote.

I don't think the language surrounding the vow did promise full fiscal autonomy. I take it you believe otherwise?

I mean, I too think greater devolution (in a perfect world, within the framework of a codified federal UK) would be good. But I also think that rhetoric like "token gestures" and "back-tracking" isn't supported (it's an incredible piece of conflation at best) and is deeply unhelpful.

(09-11-2015 12:28 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(09-11-2015 12:01 PM)cjlr Wrote:  But, as to a question that's actually potentially interesting: if the other parts of the UK have local devolution, why shouldn't England? Perhaps you feel that Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Irish MPs should have legislative powers over England that their fellow English MPs lack over their respective home constituencies? That's democratic?
(note: that is sarcasm. I do not think you actually think that, nor that you support an undemocratic inequality of powers. But I am genuinely curious as to how you think the constitutional arrangements should fall out)

Federalism.

The way they have set it up at the moment, there is a real danger of Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs from not being able to vote on matters that affect their respective budgets.

I also think a more federal structure would be better for all concerned.
(the West Lothian question is definitely a big gap in the current system)

However, if English votes went ahead as floated it would be for matters concerning England only - that's explicitly what is called for. I think it's a lazy, half-assed solution, but I hardly see how it entails what you suggest.

(09-11-2015 12:28 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(09-11-2015 12:01 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Nothing.

What's wrong with it as practised on September 18, 2014 in Scotland?

We didn't get self determination.

In what way was the referendum not self-determination?

(09-11-2015 12:28 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  Instead we got another government focused on satisfying voters in a region of another country.

But this is always a risk in all democracies. It is an inevitable consequence of any system which incorporates any degree of representation by population.

I also don't see how any possible constitutional reshuffle - anywhere - would change that? Because it's true that most Scottish MPs are not in government (this time around), but it's just as true that most of South Scotland isn't represented in government in the Scottish parliament. We could list similar examples from all over the world until the end of time. That certainly doesn't mean those places lack self-determination.

(09-11-2015 12:28 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  Until we forced the issue by voting for the SNP into Westminster and then the other MPs started arguing that they had no legitimacy being there because they wanted to break up the union.

In Canada our equivalent Bloq Quebecois did so well in the 1993 elections that they were the Official Opposition. What a few hotheaded backbenchers said about that didn't particularly matter. Why does it matter over there? Who are "the other MPs"? I am relatively sure it's not all 591 of them.

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09-11-2015, 01:24 PM
RE: Is the shit going to hit the fan in Spain??
I favor any state or province who wants to leave the motherland. The biggest mistake made in this country was not letting the south go in 1860.
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