Is the universe infinite?
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27-05-2011, 09:52 AM
 
Is the universe infinite?
Greetings fellow atheists, I've been arguing with a theist on facebook about God and the Universe. The theist claims that the universe is finite so God could've created it. I'm defending the universe is infinite and eternal, thus it doesn't require a creator. However I was stumped by the following response:

""1. "Einstein's General Relativity requires a finite spherical universe (it cannot be infinite because of Mach's Principle, with which Einstein strongly agreed, that the mass of a body is finite, is determined by all other matter in the universe, thus all other matter in universe must be finite)."
2. "Now a new study of astronomical data only recently available hints at a possible answer: The universe is finite and bears a rough resemblance to a soccer ball or, more accurately, a dodecahedron, a 12-sided volume bounded by pentagons."
3. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn42...inite.html
"Tantalising evidence hints Universe is finite"
4.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAbi5qUIU70
5.http://io9.com/5665742/the-universe-might-have-to-end-in-37-billion-years-so-that-the-laws-of-physics-make-sense
"Alasdair Wilkins — The laws of physics only work in a finite universe, but we likely live in an infinite multiverse"
but
"All that might seem purely academic, but the problem comes when trying to fit finite probabilities into an infinite multiverse."

Can someone provide a reply for the above passage?
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27-05-2011, 09:57 AM
 
RE: Is the universe infinite?
(27-05-2011 09:52 AM)subzero0137 Wrote:  Greetings fellow atheists, I've been arguing with a theist on facebook about God and the Universe. The theist claims that the universe is finite so God could've created it. I'm defending the universe is infinite and eternal, thus it doesn't require a creator. However I was stumped by the following response:

""1. "Einstein's General Relativity requires a finite spherical universe (it cannot be infinite because of Mach's Principle, with which Einstein strongly agreed, that the mass of a body is finite, is determined by all other matter in the universe, thus all other matter in universe must be finite)."
2. "Now a new study of astronomical data only recently available hints at a possible answer: The universe is finite and bears a rough resemblance to a soccer ball or, more accurately, a dodecahedron, a 12-sided volume bounded by pentagons."
3. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn42...inite.html
"Tantalising evidence hints Universe is finite"
4.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAbi5qUIU70
5.http://io9.com/5665742/the-universe-might-have-to-end-in-37-billion-years-so-that-the-laws-of-physics-make-sense
"Alasdair Wilkins — The laws of physics only work in a finite universe, but we likely live in an infinite multiverse"
but
"All that might seem purely academic, but the problem comes when trying to fit finite probabilities into an infinite multiverse."

Can someone provide a reply for the above passage?

I recently linked those to a different thread for a different purpose but they apply here as well. Big Grin












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27-05-2011, 11:25 AM
RE: Is the universe infinite?
(27-05-2011 09:52 AM)subzero0137 Wrote:  Greetings fellow atheists, I've been arguing with a theist on facebook about God and the Universe. The theist claims that the universe is finite so God could've created it. I'm defending the universe is infinite and eternal, thus it doesn't require a creator.

I don't see why the universe being finite would in any way, shape, or form be any kind of argument in favor of a creator.

English is not my first language. If you think I am being mean, ask me. It could be just a wording problem.
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27-05-2011, 12:04 PM
 
RE: Is the universe infinite?
(27-05-2011 09:52 AM)subzero0137 Wrote:  Greetings fellow atheists, I've been arguing with a theist on facebook about God and the Universe. The theist claims that the universe is finite so God could've created it. I'm defending the universe is infinite and eternal, thus it doesn't require a creator. However I was stumped by the following response:

""1. "Einstein's General Relativity requires a finite spherical universe (it cannot be infinite because of Mach's Principle, with which Einstein strongly agreed, that the mass of a body is finite, is determined by all other matter in the universe, thus all other matter in universe must be finite)."
2. "Now a new study of astronomical data only recently available hints at a possible answer: The universe is finite and bears a rough resemblance to a soccer ball or, more accurately, a dodecahedron, a 12-sided volume bounded by pentagons."
3. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn42...inite.html
"Tantalising evidence hints Universe is finite"
4.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAbi5qUIU70
5.http://io9.com/5665742/the-universe-might-have-to-end-in-37-billion-years-so-that-the-laws-of-physics-make-sense
"Alasdair Wilkins — The laws of physics only work in a finite universe, but we likely live in an infinite multiverse"
but
"All that might seem purely academic, but the problem comes when trying to fit finite probabilities into an infinite multiverse."

Can someone provide a reply for the above passage?

3: I know it's a little long, but i would really recommend watching the last video posted by celestus87 (a universe from nothing). Lawrence Krauss does a much better job of explaining what the reporter in point 3 were trying to convey, as well as many of the other points.

1: It's true that Einstein's General Relativity theory ultimately led to the conclusion that the universe must be finite, But! There is one misconception about this that is very common. The big bang is not the beginning of everything, just the universe as we know it. Einstein’s theory breaks down at the first moments of the big bang, thus it can't say anything beyond that. If anyone comes with ideas about what came before or that it is the definite beginning, it's pure speculation (that includes the multiverse theory!). If i remember correctly, Lawrence Krauss talks about this in the video above.

2: I've never heard of this and would be very interested in hearing how they've figured it out, considering; as far as i know the observable universe is nowhere near the size of what we think the actual size of the universe is. If this is from that football-image from the story in point 3, they're talking about a closed universe, which there is increasing evidence against today (see Krauss video!).

4: I'm sorry, i couldn't watch it all through, but all I heard in the beginning was philosophical arguments which isn't necessarily applicable to reality. The natural sciences should always be tackled empirically.

5: More speculation, which the article is kind enough to admit. Smile

I guess the main point is that the universe as we know it has a finite beginning (when it comes to endings you'd need to go back to the speculation, as far as I’ve heard the "heat death" seems to be the most prominent theory), but since the laws of physics as we know them break down at this beginning, we have absolutely no reason to think this was the beginning of everything and there was nothing prior to it.

Beyond that, speculate all you like!
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27-05-2011, 12:18 PM
RE: Is the universe infinite?
It does not really matter if the universe if finite or infinite because either way it does not need a creator. Also, to claim that there is a creator you need to support/evidence. Even a flying spaghetti monster can create a finite or infinite universe, but without evidence that claim is useless!

what the finite or infinite universe even prove? nothing! (at least to me) lol
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27-05-2011, 02:12 PM
RE: Is the universe infinite?
oh... I was under the impression that the universe is 4 dimensional...

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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27-05-2011, 03:29 PM
 
RE: Is the universe infinite?
(27-05-2011 02:12 PM)The_observer Wrote:  oh... I was under the impression that the universe is 4 dimensional...

3 linear dimensions
8 curved dimensions (don't ask me what they are. I cannot grasp it...)
+ 1 dimension for time although this is currently debatable
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27-05-2011, 04:01 PM
 
RE: Is the universe infinite?
Thanks for the prompt replies people, I'll have a look at those videos right away.

I think people have different interpretations for the universe. Some say it's space, I define it as the sum of everything that exists, that includes time. Time exists in the universe, not the other way round.

Smile
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30-05-2011, 07:22 AM
 
RE: Is the universe infinite?
Krauss makes it plain - it is most likely the universe is flat, and therefore infinite.

"All that might seem purely academic, but the problem comes when trying to fit finite probabilities into an infinite multiverse."

Why, and why would one need to do that?
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30-05-2011, 09:42 AM
RE: Is the universe infinite?
Just one point from me :
New Scientist is NOT a peer-reviewed science journal.

Quote:Editors of non-peer-reviewed journals - New Scientist included - have a far greater responsibility than those in the peer-reviewed world to filter out distortions.

Source :
http://genesis1.asu.edu/newsciaug27.html
(by Lawrence Krauss)

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

Proud of my genetic relatives Big Grin
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