Is there such thing as "Creation"?
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07-11-2014, 06:35 PM (This post was last modified: 07-11-2014 11:11 PM by Paranoid.)
Is there such thing as "Creation"?
Someone asked me, "How will everything exist without a creator?"

First, it will be quite non-sense to ask that kind of question. As of what Richard Dawkins said, "It is not sensible to ask "How do mountains exist?" or "How did life exist?" I think it will be more relevant to ask "What are these reactions that caused mountains to exist?" or "What are these building blocks of chemicals that caused life to exist?"

So I will clearly answer the question "What is this thing that caused life to exist without someone creating it?"

Actually, as of now, no one actually knows how and why; but Science, as a progress, is obviously working on its role. For so many years, Science is advancing through the mysteries of this place and they are already filling the gap. Curiosities time by time are being answered through experiments, theories, hypothesis, and etc. Well, the truth lies ahead.

Let's talk about the truth. Anything can be true because everyone's mind is relative. By this time, you already know that my post exists because you've already seen it and this thread is the proof. Your eyes can see them, then it is the evidence. For those people who did not click my subject, then these sentences do not exist for them. But then, it really exists. Another thing is imagine someone named Robin. He is a real guy, a tough one. Then, I see Robin gay. Of course, my view for Robin will adjust and construct what makes him gay. But then, Robin is not. So anything we know that is true is this thing so called "self-concluded reality" but we're talking about things that are "naturally there". So let us use the word "naturally there".

I have this question in my mind for so long, "Does something have to be created to exist?" We are used to something that must be created to be there. For example, a paper-folder will actually be required for an origami art to exist. But then, creation itself may just be a linguistic concept that exists in the language of our world or by our observations. But my question is, do they have to exist in some parts of the universe or even the creation of existence of the universe itself? The word "create" is a concept by which something will be created. But what if our universe was not created? Creation is just the aftermath of the universe's chemical aftershocks. My point is, not all existence are required to be created. There can be other concepts that we still do not know with how things can exist in a very complex way.

Does nothing exist? Remove cars, trees, malls, schools, churches, people, earth, sun, Proxima Centauri, Saturn, Milky Way Galaxy, all other galaxies, nebulae, and every particle that is there; and what will be left behind? Most of you are expected to answer nothing but I am fortunate enough that it is empty space that is there. Empty space is not nothing and it is clearly something. When you go outer space with an oxygen to breathe, what actually happens? You will obviously rotate and spin and tumble. What causes the rotation? If it is nothing, then you are not even possible to be there. So, theoretically speaking, it is flexibility. If the fabric of the cosmos, space, is something, then why think of nothing's existence for nothing itself is not even a word to describe the whole universe and every absence that is there? Nothing is not a valid word for being a noun and I think it is just an adjective to describe something's absence. Nothing can also not exist anyway. Nothing is just a word given a meaning. It is just a concept made, and not all concepts are possible to exist in every part of our space. Even the word "concept" is just a concept. My main point is, all of our understandings are concepts but we can see if they are valid whether they are artificial or natural. If the concepts are to describe what is naturally there, then they are valid concepts. If the concepts are to make a new concept by which it explains that something came from what is naturally, supernaturally, or hypothetically there, then they are concepts which are needed for natural evidences and it will show its validity or invalidity. So if the word nothing is just man-made, then it can be a mistaken concept or rather a wrong word to use in such state. Why question something's existence out of nothing? Why not question that something is there because it is something? Does everything have to be created for the validity of its existence? How can we describe the existence of a supernatural for the existence of what's naturally there?

I am an atheist not by conclusion but by nature.
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08-11-2014, 12:05 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(07-11-2014 06:35 PM)Paranoid Wrote:  Someone asked me, "How will everything exist without a creator?"

First, it will be quite non-sense to ask that kind of question. As of what Richard Dawkins said, "It is not sensible to ask "How do mountains exist?" or "How did life exist?" I think it will be more relevant to ask "What are these reactions that caused mountains to exist?" or "What are these building blocks of chemicals that caused life to exist?"

So I will clearly answer the question "What is this thing that caused life to exist without someone creating it?"

Actually, as of now, no one actually knows how and why; but Science, as a progress, is obviously working on its role. For so many years, Science is advancing through the mysteries of this place and they are already filling the gap. Curiosities time by time are being answered through experiments, theories, hypothesis, and etc. Well, the truth lies ahead.

Let's talk about the truth. Anything can be true because everyone's mind is relative. By this time, you already know that my post exists because you've already seen it and this thread is the proof. Your eyes can see them, then it is the evidence. For those people who did not click my subject, then these sentences do not exist for them. But then, it really exists. Another thing is imagine someone named Robin. He is a real guy, a tough one. Then, I see Robin gay. Of course, my view for Robin will adjust and construct what makes him gay. But then, Robin is not. So anything we know that is true is this thing so called "self-concluded reality" but we're talking about things that are "naturally there". So let us use the word "naturally there".

I have this question in my mind for so long, "Does something have to be created to exist?" We are used to something that must be created to be there. For example, a paper-folder will actually be required for an origami art to exist. But then, creation itself may just be a linguistic concept that exists in the language of our world or by our observations. But my question is, do they have to exist in some parts of the universe or even the creation of existence of the universe itself? The word "create" is a concept by which something will be created. But what if our universe was not created? Creation is just the aftermath of the universe's chemical aftershocks. My point is, not all existence are required to be created. There can be other concepts that we still do not know with how things can exist in a very complex way.

Does nothing exist? Remove cars, trees, malls, schools, churches, people, earth, sun, Proxima Centauri, Saturn, Milky Way Galaxy, all other galaxies, nebulae, and every particle that is there; and what will be left behind? Most of you are expected to answer nothing but I am fortunate enough that it is empty space that is there. Empty space is not nothing and it is clearly something. When you go outer space with an oxygen to breathe, what actually happens? You will obviously rotate and spin and tumble. What causes the rotation? If it is nothing, then you are not even possible to be there. So, theoretically speaking, it is flexibility. If the fabric of the cosmos, space, is something, then why think of nothing's existence for nothing itself is not even a word to describe the whole universe and every absence that is there? Nothing is not a valid word for being a noun and I think it is just an adjective to describe something's absence. Nothing can also not exist anyway. Nothing is just a word given a meaning. It is just a concept made, and not all concepts are possible to exist in every part of our space. Even the word "concept" is just a concept. My main point is, all of our understandings are concepts but we can see if they are valid whether they are artificial or natural. If the concepts are to describe what is naturally there, then they are valid concepts. If the concepts are to make a new concept by which it explains that something came from what is naturally, supernaturally, or hypothetically there, then they are concepts which are needed for natural evidences and it will show its validity or invalidity. So if the word nothing is just man-made, then it can be a mistaken concept or rather a wrong word to use in such state. Why question something's existence out of nothing? Why not question that something is there because it is something? Does everything have to be created for the validity of its existence? How can we describe the existence of a supernatural for the existence of what's naturally there?

Ah yes, the nature of existence.

It is my opinion that nothing was ever created, but rather everything we see is merely a re-shaping of some previous form of existence.

It is not unlike how we re-shape a tree into boards to build a house. Then, over time and because of time, those boards decay and the earth recycles that decaying matter into something else.

When we look at our solar system, and see the egg shaped planets circulating around our star, we tend to wonder at how they came to be. To me, at least, it requires minimal reasoning to arrive at an acceptable conclusion that each and every planet was trapped into the orbit of the sun when they were all originally just large jagged rocks that came from some other place in the universe.

Over time, the solar wind, gravitational effects, and other elements smoothed off the jagged edges of that rock and it was gradually re-shaped into what we see today.

Then sometime in the future, as the sun expires of its energy, the planet we call earth will be re-shaped once again and recycled.

Other people tend to look at the universe as something that was created. Whether it is the religious folks claiming God, or scientists claiming the Big Bang, humanity always tends to look for an origin to existence.

But what if there simply was no origin? What if all matter and energy in the universe has always existed in one form or another, and has always merely been recycled and re-shaped infinitely and eternally?

Science has made a determination that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, and I believe that if science can accept that premise, then how little distance do they need to go to understand that matter and energy are simply two sides of the same coin? We can convert matter into energy, and now they are learning how to convert energy into matter.

But the point I am making here is rather obvious to me. If energy can neither be created nor destroyed, how then does it exist without being created? Well then there is only one answer available according to the current state of our knowledge:

Energy has always existed, and therefore so has matter.

Now for the next step.

If matter and energy have always existed, then that means that matter and energy are eternal. Since they would be eternal in the universe, then the universe is also eternal, and was never created.

And now one step further ...

If the universe is eternal, then it is also infinite.

Can we prove that infinity exists? Well, we can demonstrate the concept just by counting numbers. 1 ... 2... 3 etc, and you could count an infinite amount of numbers. Since you could count an infinite amount of numbers, it means that you could count eternally.

And this demonstrates that both infinity and eternity go hand-in-hand, therefore if the universe is eternal, it is also infinite.

Anyways, those are just my personal thoughts on this matter.

Have a great day.

Shy

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? I am an atheist because it is the natural state of being we are all born into.
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08-11-2014, 04:40 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(07-11-2014 06:35 PM)Paranoid Wrote:  Does nothing exist? Remove cars, trees, malls, schools, churches, people, earth, sun, Proxima Centauri, Saturn, Milky Way Galaxy, all other galaxies, nebulae, and every particle that is there; and what will be left behind? Most of you are expected to answer nothing but I am fortunate enough that it is empty space that is there.
I don't think that it works that way.

Time and space are a consequence of matter/energy.
Without matter/energy you don't even have a 3 dimensional space.
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08-11-2014, 05:40 PM (This post was last modified: 08-11-2014 05:50 PM by Paranoid.)
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(08-11-2014 12:05 PM)Free Wrote:  
(07-11-2014 06:35 PM)Paranoid Wrote:  Someone asked me, "How will everything exist without a creator?"

First, it will be quite non-sense to ask that kind of question. As of what Richard Dawkins said, "It is not sensible to ask "How do mountains exist?" or "How did life exist?" I think it will be more relevant to ask "What are these reactions that caused mountains to exist?" or "What are these building blocks of chemicals that caused life to exist?"

So I will clearly answer the question "What is this thing that caused life to exist without someone creating it?"

Actually, as of now, no one actually knows how and why; but Science, as a progress, is obviously working on its role. For so many years, Science is advancing through the mysteries of this place and they are already filling the gap. Curiosities time by time are being answered through experiments, theories, hypothesis, and etc. Well, the truth lies ahead.

Let's talk about the truth. Anything can be true because everyone's mind is relative. By this time, you already know that my post exists because you've already seen it and this thread is the proof. Your eyes can see them, then it is the evidence. For those people who did not click my subject, then these sentences do not exist for them. But then, it really exists. Another thing is imagine someone named Robin. He is a real guy, a tough one. Then, I see Robin gay. Of course, my view for Robin will adjust and construct what makes him gay. But then, Robin is not. So anything we know that is true is this thing so called "self-concluded reality" but we're talking about things that are "naturally there". So let us use the word "naturally there".

I have this question in my mind for so long, "Does something have to be created to exist?" We are used to something that must be created to be there. For example, a paper-folder will actually be required for an origami art to exist. But then, creation itself may just be a linguistic concept that exists in the language of our world or by our observations. But my question is, do they have to exist in some parts of the universe or even the creation of existence of the universe itself? The word "create" is a concept by which something will be created. But what if our universe was not created? Creation is just the aftermath of the universe's chemical aftershocks. My point is, not all existence are required to be created. There can be other concepts that we still do not know with how things can exist in a very complex way.

Does nothing exist? Remove cars, trees, malls, schools, churches, people, earth, sun, Proxima Centauri, Saturn, Milky Way Galaxy, all other galaxies, nebulae, and every particle that is there; and what will be left behind? Most of you are expected to answer nothing but I am fortunate enough that it is empty space that is there. Empty space is not nothing and it is clearly something. When you go outer space with an oxygen to breathe, what actually happens? You will obviously rotate and spin and tumble. What causes the rotation? If it is nothing, then you are not even possible to be there. So, theoretically speaking, it is flexibility. If the fabric of the cosmos, space, is something, then why think of nothing's existence for nothing itself is not even a word to describe the whole universe and every absence that is there? Nothing is not a valid word for being a noun and I think it is just an adjective to describe something's absence. Nothing can also not exist anyway. Nothing is just a word given a meaning. It is just a concept made, and not all concepts are possible to exist in every part of our space. Even the word "concept" is just a concept. My main point is, all of our understandings are concepts but we can see if they are valid whether they are artificial or natural. If the concepts are to describe what is naturally there, then they are valid concepts. If the concepts are to make a new concept by which it explains that something came from what is naturally, supernaturally, or hypothetically there, then they are concepts which are needed for natural evidences and it will show its validity or invalidity. So if the word nothing is just man-made, then it can be a mistaken concept or rather a wrong word to use in such state. Why question something's existence out of nothing? Why not question that something is there because it is something? Does everything have to be created for the validity of its existence? How can we describe the existence of a supernatural for the existence of what's naturally there?

Ah yes, the nature of existence.

It is my opinion that nothing was ever created, but rather everything we see is merely a re-shaping of some previous form of existence.

It is not unlike how we re-shape a tree into boards to build a house. Then, over time and because of time, those boards decay and the earth recycles that decaying matter into something else.

When we look at our solar system, and see the egg shaped planets circulating around our star, we tend to wonder at how they came to be. To me, at least, it requires minimal reasoning to arrive at an acceptable conclusion that each and every planet was trapped into the orbit of the sun when they were all originally just large jagged rocks that came from some other place in the universe.

Over time, the solar wind, gravitational effects, and other elements smoothed off the jagged edges of that rock and it was gradually re-shaped into what we see today.

Then sometime in the future, as the sun expires of its energy, the planet we call earth will be re-shaped once again and recycled.

Other people tend to look at the universe as something that was created. Whether it is the religious folks claiming God, or scientists claiming the Big Bang, humanity always tends to look for an origin to existence.

But what if there simply was no origin? What if all matter and energy in the universe has always existed in one form or another, and has always merely been recycled and re-shaped infinitely and eternally?

Science has made a determination that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, and I believe that if science can accept that premise, then how little distance do they need to go to understand that matter and energy are simply two sides of the same coin? We can convert matter into energy, and now they are learning how to convert energy into matter.

But the point I am making here is rather obvious to me. If energy can neither be created nor destroyed, how then does it exist without being created? Well then there is only one answer available according to the current state of our knowledge:

Energy has always existed, and therefore so has matter.

Now for the next step.

If matter and energy have always existed, then that means that matter and energy are eternal. Since they would be eternal in the universe, then the universe is also eternal, and was never created.

And now one step further ...

If the universe is eternal, then it is also infinite.

Can we prove that infinity exists? Well, we can demonstrate the concept just by counting numbers. 1 ... 2... 3 etc, and you could count an infinite amount of numbers. Since you could count an infinite amount of numbers, it means that you could count eternally.

And this demonstrates that both infinity and eternity go hand-in-hand, therefore if the universe is eternal, it is also infinite.

Anyways, those are just my personal thoughts on this matter.

Have a great day.

Shy

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I am an atheist not by conclusion but by nature.
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08-11-2014, 05:40 PM (This post was last modified: 08-11-2014 05:46 PM by Paranoid.)
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(08-11-2014 04:40 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(07-11-2014 06:35 PM)Paranoid Wrote:  Does nothing exist? Remove cars, trees, malls, schools, churches, people, earth, sun, Proxima Centauri, Saturn, Milky Way Galaxy, all other galaxies, nebulae, and every particle that is there; and what will be left behind? Most of you are expected to answer nothing but I am fortunate enough that it is empty space that is there.
I don't think that it works that way.

Time and space are a consequence of matter/energy.
Without matter/energy you don't even have a 3 dimensional space.

I'm just speaking of the absence of particles theoretically. XD

I am an atheist not by conclusion but by nature.
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08-11-2014, 06:28 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(07-11-2014 06:35 PM)Paranoid Wrote:  Someone asked me, "How will everything exist without a creator?"

How does the earth spin without Atlas moving around with the earth on his shoulders ?
How do the clouds produce rain when the sky gods are happy ?

I really don't understand how anything can happen naturally. There must be a supernatural force guiding every natural occurrence.
I just don't see how nature can work by itself.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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08-11-2014, 07:43 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(08-11-2014 06:28 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  
(07-11-2014 06:35 PM)Paranoid Wrote:  Someone asked me, "How will everything exist without a creator?"

How does the earth spin without Atlas moving around with the earth on his shoulders ?
How do the clouds produce rain when the sky gods are happy ?

I really don't understand how anything can happen naturally. There must be a supernatural force guiding every natural occurrence.
I just don't see how nature can work by itself.

It is because they are creating non-observable masks with everything that happens through imagination and expectations I think?

I am an atheist not by conclusion but by nature.
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08-11-2014, 09:44 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(08-11-2014 05:40 PM)Paranoid Wrote:  I'm just speaking of the absence of particles theoretically. XD
Yeah, I know. but you remove the energy/matter and then space itself disappears.
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08-11-2014, 10:20 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(08-11-2014 09:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Yeah, I know. but you remove the energy/matter and then space itself disappears.

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08-11-2014, 10:54 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(08-11-2014 09:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(08-11-2014 05:40 PM)Paranoid Wrote:  I'm just speaking of the absence of particles theoretically. XD
Yeah, I know. but you remove the energy/matter and then space itself disappears.

Yeah, and that's the point with how FREE told us about his personal opinion of having space eternal because of matter and energy.

I am an atheist not by conclusion but by nature.
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