Is there such thing as "Creation"?
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11-11-2014, 04:02 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 03:35 PM)Free Wrote:  What's painfully obvious here...

If by "painfully obvious" you mean "wildly spurious", perhaps...

(11-11-2014 03:35 PM)Free Wrote:  ... is you simply do not like the questions, so then you ask me to invent new definitions for words because you do not like the obvious answers to those questions.

It's okay.

I get it.

Big Grin

Your questions are bad and you should feel bad.

If I accept your premises then I might grant your conclusion.

I do not accept your premises.

I cannot answer your questions without accepting your premises. Which, I again remind you, I do not.

This is not complicated.

...

If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?

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11-11-2014, 04:14 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?

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11-11-2014, 04:18 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
Quote:An infinitely small, infinitely dense 1 dimensional point.
Three dimensional space is not required.

So you accept the possibility that infinity exists? That's one of my points in this discussion.

Also, do you think it is possible using your theory above that such a described point would still occupy a place?

Quote:
(11-11-2014 01:02 PM)Free Wrote:  ...that if all of space was contained in a specific place
Where would this specific place be? What are its coordinates?

Unknown, but my point is ... would such a specific place need to exist prior to expansion?

Quote:Are you assuming that the Earth is at the point of origin of the Big Bang. Out of the 10^22 stars in the observable universe it just so happens that our Sun is the one at this point of origin?

No, not at all. I have no idea where the point of origin would have existed. All I am assuming is that there logically should be a point of origin at some specific place.

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11-11-2014, 04:26 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 04:02 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(11-11-2014 03:35 PM)Free Wrote:  What's painfully obvious here...

If by "painfully obvious" you mean "wildly spurious", perhaps...

(11-11-2014 03:35 PM)Free Wrote:  ... is you simply do not like the questions, so then you ask me to invent new definitions for words because you do not like the obvious answers to those questions.

It's okay.

I get it.

Big Grin

Your questions are bad and you should feel bad.

If I accept your premises then I might grant your conclusion.

I do not accept your premises.

I cannot answer your questions without accepting your premises. Which, I again remind you, I do not.

This is not complicated.

...

If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?

Okay, that's cool.

Carry on.

Big Grin

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11-11-2014, 04:30 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 04:18 PM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:Are you assuming that the Earth is at the point of origin of the Big Bang. Out of the 10^22 stars in the observable universe it just so happens that our Sun is the one at this point of origin?

No, not at all. I have no idea where the point of origin would have existed. All I am assuming is that there logically should be a point of origin at some specific place.
The key issue, as I see it, with your view of a single point of origin from which everything is hurtling away from either assumes that Earth is at the centre of the universe or has a huge inconsistency with observations of the universe as made from Earth.


The other aspect that it doesn't account for is why speeds of objects traveling away from Earth increase based on the distance objects are from Earth.

The scientific model accounts for these. Your model does not.
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11-11-2014, 04:40 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 04:26 PM)Free Wrote:  
(11-11-2014 04:02 PM)cjlr Wrote:  If by "painfully obvious" you mean "wildly spurious", perhaps...


Your questions are bad and you should feel bad.

If I accept your premises then I might grant your conclusion.

I do not accept your premises.

I cannot answer your questions without accepting your premises. Which, I again remind you, I do not.

This is not complicated.

...

If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?

Okay, that's cool.

Carry on.

Big Grin

A point is dimensionless - it takes up no space. None. It isn't anywhere. There doesn't need to be any place for it to be - it takes up no room.

The Big Bang was not an explosion. It was the beginning of space-time.

The galaxies that are receding are not moving away in any normal sense. The universe is getting larger, everything gets further apart.

Everything you know is not known to apply anywhere other than this universe.

This universe may be all of reality. Or not. We don't know.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-11-2014, 04:58 PM (This post was last modified: 11-11-2014 05:02 PM by cjlr.)
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
Incidentally I offer for consideration some scientific studies on the cosmic background radiation and its relation to the metric expansion.
(in summary - A states that universal asymmetry [such as our being the centre of it!] would lead to consequence X; we do not observe X, therefore such asymmetry does not exist. B and C are experimental and observation-based: we performed measurements of background radiation and redshift and found values exactly as predicted by the prevailing theories of expansion cosmology)

As a general rule cosmology bets on the Copernican principle being true: if we're not the centre of the solar system, and not the centre of the galaxy, what possible reason is there to assume we're the centre of the universe?

The uniformity of the cosmic background radiation and its evident demonstration of redshift-dependent frequency make it a very useful area for studying these sorts of topics. That the background radiation is uniform means that such variance is explicable only in terms of expansion.

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11-11-2014, 05:03 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
If Free really wants to get to this in a better way that's more likely to be easily discussed.

I'd recommend just creating a new thread in the science section with well thought open questions on the big bang. It'd probably be better than continuing this ongoing in this bizarre topic after the way it has been going.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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11-11-2014, 08:07 PM (This post was last modified: 11-11-2014 08:29 PM by Free.)
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
Quote:A point is dimensionless - it takes up no space. None. It isn't anywhere. There doesn't need to be any place for it to be - it takes up no room.

Does it qualify as an existence?

Quote:The Big Bang was not an explosion. It was the beginning of space-time.

If it was the "point" as you defined above, would it be considered as existing?

Quote:The galaxies that are receding are not moving away in any normal sense. The universe is getting larger, everything gets further apart.

I understand this. The only comparison I can make is to how the dough from bread rises in a bread pan. If, for example, we placed two raisins together in the dough before the dough began to rise, the expanding dough would force the raisins apart.

Therefore, on a much larger scale, if the universe expanded in an instant to say ... 5 billion light years across in one single second, then 2 objects that were touching each other at the point of origin could conceivably be 4 or 5 billion light years away from each other, and from the point of origin, in 1 second.

And that is how I can understand how something can travel faster than the speed of light.

Another example using the bread dough is to imagine it as a pole, with one raisin on one side, and the other raisin on the other side. Now, let's expand the dough at the speed of light for 1 second from the point of origin in all directions. The 2 raisins are now twice the distance from each other as to what light travels in a single second of time.

They would appear to have traveled at twice the speed of light to arrive at their destinations, but they really didn't. They would be approx 372.000 miles away from each other, and any kind of light emitting from them would not reach the other raisin until 2 seconds passed.

It's very cool. Thumbsup

Quote:Everything you know is not known to apply anywhere other than this universe.

True, if the current model is accurate.

Quote:This universe may be all of reality. Or not. We don't know.

"We don't know" is the best answer.

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12-11-2014, 07:27 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 04:02 PM)cjlr Wrote:  If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?

This is like asking, "If societies have evolved through technology, why are there still third-world countries?"

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