Is there such thing as "Creation"?
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12-11-2014, 02:07 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(12-11-2014 01:52 PM)Free Wrote:  You are leaning towards the origin of existence as being the Big Bang and expansion of space-time. You are adamant in claiming that nothing existed prior, and space is not expanding into anything.

No, I am not saying that.

I do not see how any reasonable interpretation of my statements would lead you to such a conclusion.

I am saying that if you wish to actively propose something additional (you know - as you are), then you must justify doing so. You have not.
(and you have not even come remotely close to coherently defining this additional "something", which would seem to be an essential first step in any case)

(12-11-2014 01:52 PM)Free Wrote:  To you, the universe as you understand it is all there is. Full Stop. You do not even appear to be willing to entertain any other possibilities. You have swallowed the status quo hook, line, and sinker.

No, I am not saying that. At all.

I do not see how any reasonable interpretation of my statements would lead you to such a conclusion.

Rejecting out of hand a presuppositional objection so ill-conceived as to be meaningless is not "swallowing the status quo". And I'm afraid I simply cannot follow the line of "thought" necessary to deem it so.

(12-11-2014 01:52 PM)Free Wrote:  Yet, ALL of it is still a theory. Yes I agree that there is apparent evidence to support the theory, but some of the interpretations of that evidence seems to be tainted with some confirmation bias. They started out with a theory, and now look for ways to confirm it.

Hence, my skepticism.

Do you feel that this is a problem with large portions of most scientific communities?

Skepticism does not mean refusing to accept anything.
(much though the likes of the 9/11 truthers and anti-vaxxers would like to think it does; "if skepticism is not believing things, then I'm more skeptical because I believe fewer things lololol")

(12-11-2014 01:52 PM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:But your closing statement is in fact quite relevant here. "A question assumes the answer will be the truth"; what, then, if one rejects the question?

If his position is one of absolute silence, then he rejects the question. No positive or negative statement was made.

To wildly conflate "rejecting the assumptions underlying the question" with "absolute silence" is absurd.

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12-11-2014, 04:24 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(12-11-2014 02:07 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(12-11-2014 01:52 PM)Free Wrote:  You are leaning towards the origin of existence as being the Big Bang and expansion of space-time. You are adamant in claiming that nothing existed prior, and space is not expanding into anything.

No, I am not saying that.

I do not see how any reasonable interpretation of my statements would lead you to such a conclusion.

I am saying that if you wish to actively propose something additional (you know - as you are), then you must justify doing so. You have not.
(and you have not even come remotely close to coherently defining this additional "something", which would seem to be an essential first step in any case)

(12-11-2014 01:52 PM)Free Wrote:  To you, the universe as you understand it is all there is. Full Stop. You do not even appear to be willing to entertain any other possibilities. You have swallowed the status quo hook, line, and sinker.

No, I am not saying that. At all.

I do not see how any reasonable interpretation of my statements would lead you to such a conclusion.

Rejecting out of hand a presuppositional objection so ill-conceived as to be meaningless is not "swallowing the status quo". And I'm afraid I simply cannot follow the line of "thought" necessary to deem it so.

(12-11-2014 01:52 PM)Free Wrote:  Yet, ALL of it is still a theory. Yes I agree that there is apparent evidence to support the theory, but some of the interpretations of that evidence seems to be tainted with some confirmation bias. They started out with a theory, and now look for ways to confirm it.

Hence, my skepticism.

Do you feel that this is a problem with large portions of most scientific communities?

Skepticism does not mean refusing to accept anything.
(much though the likes of the 9/11 truthers and anti-vaxxers would like to think it does; "if skepticism is not believing things, then I'm more skeptical because I believe fewer things lololol")

(12-11-2014 01:52 PM)Free Wrote:  If his position is one of absolute silence, then he rejects the question. No positive or negative statement was made.

To wildly conflate "rejecting the assumptions underlying the question" with "absolute silence" is absurd.

Whatever, I've said my piece on that issue and am now moving on.

So, about the distant objects that appear to be accelerating, and this is for anyone.

Theories?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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12-11-2014, 04:34 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
Free, I googled your last question and found this page (in like 3 seconds lol), which is a list of questions on Cosmology.

You can find answers to What is the Universe expanding into? and Why do we think that the expansion of the Universe is accelerating?

and many more. Tongue Have fun. I think this topic would fit much better in the Science subsection though.

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12-11-2014, 06:09 PM (This post was last modified: 12-11-2014 06:13 PM by Free.)
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(12-11-2014 04:34 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  Free, I googled your last question and found this page (in like 3 seconds lol), which is a list of questions on Cosmology.

You can find answers to What is the Universe expanding into? and Why do we think that the expansion of the Universe is accelerating?

and many more. Tongue Have fun. I think this topic would fit much better in the Science subsection though.

Awesome webpage, thanks.

After reading that, and other literature, I see that my position incorporates characteristics of the current model and the older Steady State model.

In short, my position is that the Big Bang did occur, but it expanded space within an already existing part of the universe, and is not the origin of the universe.

I theorize that in this part of the universe, the singularity was not unique in the universe as a whole. I also like to imagine that a "Big Crunch" already happened in this part of the universe, which created the singularity, which then became the Big Bang.

I wonder if anyone has any kind of input as to whether or not space is capable of expanding within an already existent space?

BTW, before anyone jumps down my back, be it known that I have an absolutely miserable time accepting any possibility that anything was ever created. This is one of the key reasons why I am having massive problems viewing the current model as some kind of a "Creator."

It's the atheist in me, you see? Big Grin

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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12-11-2014, 06:31 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(12-11-2014 06:09 PM)Free Wrote:  I wonder if anyone has any kind of input as to whether or not space is capable of expanding within an already existent space?
Space is expanding everywhere within our current already existent universe.
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12-11-2014, 07:10 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(12-11-2014 06:31 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(12-11-2014 06:09 PM)Free Wrote:  I wonder if anyone has any kind of input as to whether or not space is capable of expanding within an already existent space?
Space is expanding everywhere within our current already existent universe.

Let's look at the theory of the Big Crunch and assume it could happen, or better yet, has already happened.

Considering that the Big Bang expanded space, then would it not be safe to assume that a Big Crunch would compress all space subject to its gravitational force?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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12-11-2014, 07:30 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(12-11-2014 07:10 PM)Free Wrote:  
(12-11-2014 06:31 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Space is expanding everywhere within our current already existent universe.

Let's look at the theory of the Big Crunch and assume it could happen, or better yet, has already happened.

Considering that the Big Bang expanded space, then would it not be safe to assume that a Big Crunch would compress all space subject to its gravitational force?

First reason why it's not save to assume it... there's not any evidence of it. Assuming something without evidence in all manners to me, not a safe assumption.

If we look at how gravity effects these options, it could seem possible. Let's look at what we know of how gravity works, it is actually the weakest of the elemental forces we know, so it isn't overwhelmingly going to pull things back together. So for this to happen, it would seem to be that the force exerted in the big bang would have to be weaker than gravity. Perhaps, but I don't think the level of evidence we've come to is anyway showing that to be a valid prediction anymore.

We can use what we can observe with gravity and how the expansion is moving to get better understanding. It supposedly appears that objects are being pulled apart from eachother at more increasing rates than being pulled together. If gravity is having an effect on that, in what way is it occurring? That is when the mysteries of dark energy come into play because objects appear to have extra gravitational effects.. effects that are spreading out objects further apart opposed to pulling them back.

BTW.. I still think another thread in the science section specifically for big bang questioning would be better than continuing sporadic questions in this thread.

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13-11-2014, 09:44 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
Just because this is veering heavily into the science section but is still at an introductory level:



Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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13-11-2014, 10:08 AM (This post was last modified: 13-11-2014 10:25 AM by Free.)
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(12-11-2014 07:30 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  First reason why it's not save to assume it... there's not any evidence of it. Assuming something without evidence in all manners to me, not a safe assumption.

I understand the scientific philosophy which states "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent," seems to be revered in that community.

I subscribe to no such philosophy as it is my opinion that a single random utterance has the chance- however remote- to open an unlocked door to greater knowledge and understanding.

Therefore, I dare to assume with dogged determination.

Quote:If we look at how gravity effects these options, it could seem possible. Let's look at what we know of how gravity works, it is actually the weakest of the elemental forces we know, so it isn't overwhelmingly going to pull things back together. So for this to happen, it would seem to be that the force exerted in the big bang would have to be weaker than gravity. Perhaps, but I don't think the level of evidence we've come to is anyway showing that to be a valid prediction anymore.

I agree, to some extent. Then there's also the question of electromagnetism. I often wonder if there are any experiments that demonstrate the effects of electromagnetism on a large gravitational field. I don't know how anyone could ever set up anything like that, but it sure would be interesting.

Despite my limited knowledge, I find the following information fascinating:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitoelectromagnetism

Quote:We can use what we can observe with gravity and how the expansion is moving to get better understanding. It supposedly appears that objects are being pulled apart from each other at more increasing rates than being pulled together. If gravity is having an effect on that, in what way is it occurring? That is when the mysteries of dark energy come into play because objects appear to have extra gravitational effects.. effects that are spreading out objects further apart opposed to pulling them back.

Electromagnetism vrs gravitational effect, perhaps?

Quote:BTW.. I still think another thread in the science section specifically for big bang questioning would be better than continuing sporadic questions in this thread.

Not sure, but I am still addressing issues relative to the original topic.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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13-11-2014, 10:40 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(13-11-2014 10:08 AM)Free Wrote:  Therefore, I dare to assume with dogged determination.

That's the problem. Speculating freely is fine. Assuming freely is not.

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