Is there such thing as "Creation"?
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13-11-2014, 03:22 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
Just thought I'd throw in a few facts about electromagnetism that several people seem to be misunderstanding:

(1) Electromagnetism has exactly as much range as gravity -- they are both inverse-square laws. You may be confusing electromagnetism with the strong and weak nuclear forces -- those are the ones with very short ranges.

(2) Large objects like planets and stars are basically electrically neutral, or very close to it. That's why they are much more affected by gravity than by electromagnetism. Electromagnetism is more important for electrically charged particles (like electrons, for example).
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13-11-2014, 03:37 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(13-11-2014 01:03 PM)Free Wrote:  
(13-11-2014 12:38 PM)Stevil Wrote:  With the Big Crunch idea, one would conclude that items which are further away from the point(s) of expansion would be traveling slower than those closer to the point of expansion, because gravity has had more time to slow them down. At some stage they stop and then they fall back towards the point of expansion.

However scientists have observed that items further away are traveling faster than items close by. Our universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. This observation contradicts the Big Crunch expectations.

It's almost like something is "pulling" those items further away.

If we theorize that "outside" the inflation an existence was present, and if that existence was some kind of electromagnetic force, then it would make perfect sense as to why those items would be traveling faster.

If those items were closer to the electromagnetic field, the attraction to it would be greater and therefore those items would move faster towards it than items that are not as distant.

Just a theory though, we do not know.

Imagine the point of origin of the Big Bang being surrounded by an electromagnetic field?

You seem to still be fixated on forces acting on matter to accelerate it. No.
The universe is expanding, space-time is getting larger.

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13-11-2014, 03:43 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(13-11-2014 03:06 PM)Free Wrote:  but since we cannot actually observe space expansion, all we have to go on is the theory.
We do have observations that tell us space is expanding. Lookup Hubble and red-shift.


(13-11-2014 03:06 PM)Free Wrote:  And also, if space is expanding uniformly everywhere, why then are near objects not also accelerating from each other?
Because it takes a lot of distance for this expansion rate to be significant.These near objects are accelerating away, but they also have gravity accelerating them towards as well as inertia moving them in a their current direction.
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13-11-2014, 03:48 PM (This post was last modified: 13-11-2014 03:58 PM by Chas.)
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(13-11-2014 03:06 PM)Free Wrote:  And also, if space is expanding uniformly everywhere, why then are near objects not also accelerating from each other?

They are; at 69.3 km/sec/Mpc (give or take 0.8 km/sec/Mpc; Mpc=Megaparsec). The expansion of the universe is sloooooooow compared to the proper motion of galaxies.
The space between the Andromeda galaxy and our own is about 2 million light-years, which is about .6132 Mpc (1 light-year = 0.306594845 Parsec). So the expansion rate between them is about 41.88 km/sec.

It's like observing the motion of continents. Africa and South America are moving apart at about 1 cm/year.

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13-11-2014, 03:56 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(13-11-2014 03:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-11-2014 01:03 PM)Free Wrote:  It's almost like something is "pulling" those items further away.

If we theorize that "outside" the inflation an existence was present, and if that existence was some kind of electromagnetic force, then it would make perfect sense as to why those items would be traveling faster.

If those items were closer to the electromagnetic field, the attraction to it would be greater and therefore those items would move faster towards it than items that are not as distant.

Just a theory though, we do not know.

Imagine the point of origin of the Big Bang being surrounded by an electromagnetic field?

You seem to still be fixated on forces acting on matter to accelerate it. No.
The universe is expanding, space-time is getting larger.

If space is expanding uniformly, why are we not observing near objects accelerating away from each other?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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13-11-2014, 03:59 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(13-11-2014 03:56 PM)Free Wrote:  
(13-11-2014 03:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  You seem to still be fixated on forces acting on matter to accelerate it. No.
The universe is expanding, space-time is getting larger.

If space is expanding uniformly, why are we not observing near objects accelerating away from each other?

See above.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-11-2014, 04:19 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(13-11-2014 03:56 PM)Free Wrote:  
(13-11-2014 03:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  You seem to still be fixated on forces acting on matter to accelerate it. No.
The universe is expanding, space-time is getting larger.

If space is expanding uniformly, why are we not observing near objects accelerating away from each other?

Chas has already explained this, but let me try explaining it in a different way. Let's say you and I are running toward each other (or away from each other). In addition to that motion, we are both moving at high speed around the center of the earth, at even higher speed around the sun, and at even higher speed around the center of the Milky Way galaxy. Those last three motions are all much, much faster than our motion relative to each other. But the motion relative to each other is the only one we notice. If we were standing still instead of running, you wouldn't think you were moving at all. But you are -- you're moving at high speed around the center of the earth, etc. Large-scale global motions are swamped -- to our perception -- by small-scale local motions. Exactly the same sort of thing is happening with the nearby objects you refer to.
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13-11-2014, 04:42 PM (This post was last modified: 13-11-2014 04:49 PM by Free.)
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(13-11-2014 03:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-11-2014 03:06 PM)Free Wrote:  And also, if space is expanding uniformly everywhere, why then are near objects not also accelerating from each other?

They are; at 69.3 km/sec/Mpc (give or take 0.8 km/sec/Mpc; Mpc=Megaparsec). The expansion of the universe is sloooooooow compared to the proper motion of galaxies.
The space between the Andromeda galaxy and our own is about 2 million light-years, which is about .6132 Mpc (1 light-year = 0.306594845 Parsec). So the expansion rate between them is about 41.88 km/sec.

It's like observing the motion of continents. Africa and South America are moving apart at about 1 cm/year.

The speed you quoted is a constant, so can we assume the distance between near objects is constantly increasing at a rate of 69.3?

But when I hear that distant objects are increasing in speed as they move away from each other, how can this be a constant speed?

Perhaps the answer lies in the fact that we are seeing distant objects as they appeared to be accelerating in the past, and perhaps have slowed down to 69.3, and the near objects- because they are closer- the 69.3 speed is what we observe closer to the present time?

If so, another question.

Do we have any info as to compare the speeds of near objects, to objects that are between near and distant objects? For example, if near objects were traveling at 69 kph, and distant objects were traveling at 100 kph, then objects half-way between near and distant objects should be traveling at 80 kph?

Has this been confirmed?

If anything that I am saying has any merit, then the question is not "Why are distant objects accelerating," but rather, "Why are ALL objects slowing down?"

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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13-11-2014, 04:49 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(13-11-2014 04:42 PM)Free Wrote:  
(13-11-2014 03:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  They are; at 69.3 km/sec/Mpc (give or take 0.8 km/sec/Mpc; Mpc=Megaparsec). The expansion of the universe is sloooooooow compared to the proper motion of galaxies.
The space between the Andromeda galaxy and our own is about 2 million light-years, which is about .6132 Mpc (1 light-year = 0.306594845 Parsec). So the expansion rate between them is about 41.88 km/sec.

It's like observing the motion of continents. Africa and South America are moving apart at about 1 cm/year.

The speed you quoted is a constant, so can we assume the distance between near objects is constantly increasing at a rate of 69.3?

No, the rate of expansion is not a constant - it varies with distance. The farther away something is, the faster its relative recession is.

Quote:But when I hear that distant objects are increasing in speed as they move away from each other, how can this be a constant speed?

The recession velocity is about 69.3 km/sec per Megparsec - more distance, more velocity.

Quote:Perhaps the answer lies in the fact that we are seeing distant objects as they appeared to be accelerating in the past, and perhaps have slowed down to 69.3, and the near objects- because they are closer- the 69.3 speed is what we observe closer to the present time?

No - re-read above.

Quote:If so, another question.

Do we have any info as to compare the speeds of near objects, to objects that are between near and distant objects? For example, if near objects were traveling at 69 kph, and distant objects were traveling at 100 kph, then objects half-way between near and distant objects should be traveling at 80 kph?

Has this been confirmed?

That is precisely what red-shift measurements measure.

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13-11-2014, 04:59 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(13-11-2014 04:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  That is precisely what red-shift measurements measure.

So the speeds increase with distance.

But we are seeing those speeds of distant objects as they appeared billions of years ago, no?

Yet the near objects are not going as fast ... and I cannot shake that it is because we are seeing them closer to our present time.

Another question.

The closest two object from our solar system who are also closest to each other ... anyone have any idea of the speed they are separating from each other?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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