Is there such thing as "Creation"?
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14-11-2014, 09:06 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(14-11-2014 08:40 AM)Free Wrote:  
(13-11-2014 09:31 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  In layman's terms, you don't understand enough science to understand the difference.

Okay, so you don't have enough information/education to explain it yourself?

No problem. Smile

BTW, I am the CEO of an IT corporation 1.5 hours south of you, and we are constantly solving problems that require us to think outside the box on a daily basis. This is why I am always looking for alternatives.

Smile

I'm the VP of Engineering of a software company - I design the boxes. Yes

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-11-2014, 09:13 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(13-11-2014 11:31 PM)morondog Wrote:  Bro, hand-wavy "maybe it's like this" explanations do not constitute a theory. General relativity, quantum mechanics et al make specific, testable predictions. The real test of whether a theory is good or not is how good the predictions it makes are.

From what I have learned so far it is not unreasonable to question why distant redshift objects appear to be accelerating away from each other while near objects are not accelerating at the same rate.

Nor is it unreasonable to postulate. How does anyone further their education without inquiring as to more education? They simply don't.

Now, what I have noticed among some of the posters here is an unwillingness to explore other possibilities. This to me completely reeks of a belief system not so unlike a religious one. They cannot escape what they have learned to even bother looking at anything else, and are quick to dismiss anything else because what they learned is "indisputable."

Science is a method based upon calculations, observations, inference, theory and a host of other techniques that help us to arrive at the best possible answer which explains the evidence.

Science can be wrong, but at least it can learn from its mistakes. That is what makes me attracted to it.

So I don't have a PHd in cosmology or physics. Who here does? I'm betting none of you. Therefore, your opinions are just as "unprivileged" as mine. Yet, I am not here to demean anyone for their lack of knowledge on a specific subject, but many of you apparently are.

So, since I am "so much less" than many of you, and obviously so unprivileged so that I am not even permitted to query and learn from your fantastic intellectual capacities, I shall bow out of this conversation and endeavor to bring what other talents I have to other topics with the faint hope -ALTHOUGH NOT IMPOSSIBLE- that someone on this forum may benefit from it.

Big Grin

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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14-11-2014, 09:21 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(14-11-2014 09:13 AM)Free Wrote:  Nor is it unreasonable to postulate.

It has been said before that postulating is fine. Asking questions is great. Making assumptions and claims in a field in which you are not educated that run counter to the prevailing understanding of people who are educated in the field is not productive.

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14-11-2014, 09:40 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(14-11-2014 09:13 AM)Free Wrote:  So I don't have a PHd in cosmology or physics. Who here does? I'm betting none of you. Therefore, your opinions are just as "unprivileged" as mine. Yet, I am not here to demean anyone for their lack of knowledge on a specific subject, but many of you apparently are.

So, since I am "so much less" than many of you, and obviously so unprivileged so that I am not even permitted to query and learn from your fantastic intellectual capacities, I shall bow out of this conversation and endeavor to bring what other talents I have to other topics with the faint hope -ALTHOUGH NOT IMPOSSIBLE- that someone on this forum may benefit from it.

Big Grin


You're shifting the issue. No-one here, as far as I know, is an astrophysicist so we can build all the fantasy castles in the air about how the universe works but it's not going to be productive and it's not going to take us anywhere because, as it has been said before, astrophysics is NOT intuitive. Quite the opposite.

Many theories make no sense whatsoever, they sound like absolute BS and might feel like less logic than my dreams after a huge dinner. But you know what? They don't need to, as long as the maths behind it works.

You're talking about things that people spend their lives on, and sometimes don't even reach what they were pursuing, do you really think we're going somewhere by speculating so freely about it on a forum? It would be much more productive if you asked those questions to an astrophysicist and you'll see that you cannot simply go at it like "Well, to me it feels like...".

You're not "less" than anyone, we're all at the same level: below the required one. Tongue

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14-11-2014, 09:41 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(14-11-2014 08:40 AM)Free Wrote:  
(13-11-2014 09:31 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  In layman's terms, you don't understand enough science to understand the difference.

Okay, so you don't have enough information/education to explain it yourself?

No problem. Smile

BTW, I am the CEO of an IT corporation 1.5 hours south of you, and we are constantly solving problems that require us to think outside the box on a daily basis. This is why I am always looking for alternatives.

Smile

Congrats on making CEO.
Now go take some physics, calculus, astronomy, advanced geometry, statistics, linear algebra from an advanced standpoint, cosmology, quantum physics, wave function analysis and maybe some scuba so your mind doesn't turn to jello

I don't think you're a stupid guy. I think you're someone who is trying to understand something that the brightest minds in physics don't have a clear handle on.
There is a lot we know and many of us are simply trying to tell you that your ideas don't match what we observe and you just want to know why they don't match.

You want to know where the flaws are in your ideas.
Once you take the time to learn more about the subject by investing your time in all the classes I mentioned and even more for a good 8 years, you'll be at the beginning of what modern physicists know.

I'm not a physicist, but I've had enough exposure to know that I don't know very much on the grand scale.
You are correct, I'm not educated enough in physics to even begin to explain why your ideas aren't correct, but what I do know is that you use terms like electromagnetism in ways that indicate you are a layman in the subject.

Advanced professors in the field publish papers that sometimes get ripped to shreds by their colleagues.
Peer review is a gaultlet and not very pretty.

Your ideas aren't theories. Theories give explanation and provide prediction and a large host of other attributes.

So take a step back and analyze your own education in this field. I know what mine is and I know only 1% of what advanced physicists know.

As a CEO you must know that an intern on their first day can't do what you do, even if he has a great out of the box idea for how to run the company better.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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14-11-2014, 09:53 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(14-11-2014 09:21 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(14-11-2014 09:13 AM)Free Wrote:  Nor is it unreasonable to postulate.

It has been said before that postulating is fine. Asking questions is great. Making assumptions and claims in a field in which you are not educated that run counter to the prevailing understanding of people who are educated in the field is not productive.

He's been told that multiple times in this thread, but I don't get his desire to stick strongly to his concept of opinions being valid to assert even if they don't have justified evidence.

I would rather he continue a big bang questions discussion but there's simply a logical difference from asserting or saying their must be... and questioning or propositioning.

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14-11-2014, 12:24 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(14-11-2014 09:13 AM)Free Wrote:  So I don't have a PHd in cosmology or physics. Who here does? I'm betting none of you. Therefore, your opinions are just as "unprivileged" as mine. Yet, I am not here to demean anyone for their lack of knowledge on a specific subject, but many of you apparently are.

I hold a BSc and MSc in physics (with specialisations in photonics and condensed matter respectively). I am starting a PhD program in January.

Shall I repeat my earlier question to you? Recall:
If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?

This question cannot be answered within any current understanding. It simply does not make sense. The only fair response is not to humour it - because "we don't know everything lol" - but to explain how and why it is a bad question.

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14-11-2014, 01:16 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(14-11-2014 09:13 AM)Free Wrote:  So, since I am "so much less" than many of you, and obviously so unprivileged so that I am not even permitted to query and learn from your fantastic intellectual capacities, I shall bow out of this conversation and endeavor to bring what other talents I have to other topics with the faint hope -ALTHOUGH NOT IMPOSSIBLE- that someone on this forum may benefit from it.

Big Grin

You are taking offense to stuff I didn't say. But y'know, no one's stopping you from writing the General Theory of Stuff I Pulled Outta My Ass. Merely pointing out that it is, indeed, pulled out of your ass.

And this is the point where you decide to pull out the dick-waving and go on about being the big ol' CEO? Can't be too fucken dim with achievements like that to your name, can ya? Well, big up to you. It is a great achievement - I'm just a peon, what the fuck do I know. It says *dick* for the merits of your "theory".

NOW you can be offended. Dodgy Schmuck.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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14-11-2014, 01:34 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(14-11-2014 12:24 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(14-11-2014 09:13 AM)Free Wrote:  So I don't have a PHd in cosmology or physics. Who here does? I'm betting none of you. Therefore, your opinions are just as "unprivileged" as mine. Yet, I am not here to demean anyone for their lack of knowledge on a specific subject, but many of you apparently are.

I hold a BSc and MSc in physics (with specialisations in photonics and condensed matter respectively). I am starting a PhD program in January.

Shall I repeat my earlier question to you? Recall:
If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?

This question cannot be answered within any current understanding. It simply does not make sense. The only fair response is not to humour it - because "we don't know everything lol" - but to explain how and why it is a bad question.

Supposing that we did evolve from monkeys does not conclusively mean that monkey's evolved.

Anyways, I defer to your expertise.

The answers I am seeking are directly related to the topic in question, and my first response of "Ah yes, the nature of existence."

It is not so much about the origin of the universe, education in physics, cosmology etc, as it about a philosophical view.

"Is there such think as Creation?"

I simply submit there is not, and have posted my reasons previous. Creation implies a creator, be it a god of some sort, the Big Bang, or by any other means.

There are those here who have said that I should not employ my life experience on earth as a kind of guide as to how things work in the universe. I submit in some cases this may be true, but in many cases- important ones- it may not be true.

I do not see anything that was created on earth. Not one single thing was created here. Everything continuously gets re-shaped/recycled into something else. This I accept as a truth.

It is by this employment of reason that I cannot accept the Big Bang as a creator of all that exists. To me, the Big Bang is just another example of energy, matter and spacetime being reshaped and recycled from a prior existence. It's an infinite cycle that has probably happened an infinite number of times.

The universe is either infinite or it's not. Since we do not know the answer either way, we cannot make a positive claim either way. Therefore until it can be demonstrated that the universe is finite, then I cannot accept that the Big Bang created it.

And even if the universe is finite, it will still not answer my question what preceded the Big Bang.

It's been said, "From nothing, nothing comes." Lawrence Krauss, physicist, defines nothing as an "unstable quantum vacuum that contains no particles." But does this physical explanation, among others, of how the universe arose not beg the question?

After all, when one must use something "physical" to explain nothingness it is not unlike using the bible to demonstrate the existence of God.

But I digress ...

Is there such a thing as creation?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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14-11-2014, 02:01 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
When Krauss says nothing, it's not the same nothing that a regular person would say.

The "seasonal universe" (Crunch, Bang, Crunch, Bang, and so on) is an hypothesis, but from our perspective and from what we currently know, the Universe "was born" 13 billion years ago. We don't know what preceded this event, conceding that same concept to be even applicable "when" there is no such thing as time before the Big Bang.

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