Is there such thing as "Creation"?
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14-11-2014, 02:04 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(14-11-2014 02:01 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  When Krauss says nothing, it's not the same nothing that a regular person would say.

The "seasonal universe" (Crunch, Bang, Crunch, Bang, and so on) is an hypothesis, but from our perspective and from what we currently know, the Universe "was born" 13 billion years ago. We don't know what preceded this event, conceding that same concept to be even applicable "when" there is no such thing as time before the Big Bang.

I contend that there is no such thing as time at all.

Wink

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14-11-2014, 02:09 PM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2014 02:12 PM by Peebothuhul.)
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
Okay.. been following this thread for ages/days and finally have time to post something. Smile

(14-11-2014 01:34 PM)Free Wrote:  Is there such a thing as creation?

To which I answer 'No'.

Okay, now can we (Master/Mistress 'Free' and I) kind of start from scratch?

Get a basic 'Clear the decks' kind of thing happening?

Is your question "How did the Universe that we see start/happen?"

From my understanding, the current best that can be said is that there is a point in space (And back in time) that we can see which is the first light after the cooling down of the initial expansion of the energy which was the big expansion.

(I also hope I have that reasonably right)

Beyond that? I believe there are people looking for 'ripples' in said back ground radiation to indicate if there might, indeed, have been 'Other realities' rubbing up against out nascent reality back then... but other than that?

I believe the best answer currently is,

"We do not know... but people are thinking about it REALLY hard..."

EDIT:
(14-11-2014 01:34 PM)Free Wrote:  I contend that there is no such thing as time at all.

Well... since int the 'time' it took me to type and post this you've added another post after the post I was answering too.... I'd have to say you're not correct about that, either. Tongue

There are definitely sequential happenings, demonstrably happening within our shared reality.

Much cheers to all.
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14-11-2014, 02:17 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(14-11-2014 02:09 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Okay.. been following this thread for ages/days and finally have time to post something. Smile

(14-11-2014 01:34 PM)Free Wrote:  Is there such a thing as creation?

To which I answer 'No'.

Okay, now can we (Master/Mistress 'Free' and I) kind of start from scratch?

Get a basic 'Clear the decks' kind of thing happening?

Is your question "How did the Universe that we see start/happen?"

From my understanding, the current best that can be said is that there is a point in space (And back in time) that we can see which is the first light after the cooling down of the initial expansion of the energy which was the big expansion.

(I also hope I have that reasonably right)

Beyond that? I believe there are people looking for 'ripples' in said back ground radiation to indicate if there might, indeed, have been 'Other realities' rubbing up against out nascent reality back then... but other than that?

I believe the best answer currently is,

"We do not know... but people are thinking about it REALLY hard..."

EDIT:
(14-11-2014 01:34 PM)Free Wrote:  I contend that there is no such thing as time at all.

Well... since int the 'time' it took me to type and post this you've added another post after the post I was answering too.... I'd have to say you're not correct about that, either. Tongue

There are definitely sequential happenings, demonstrably happening within our shared reality.

Much cheers to all.

Are you asking if you can join my private club of "The Apparently Intellectually Impoverished?" Gasp

Well by all means, curl up in a chair and I will get you some tea! One lump or two?

Drinking Beverage

Now, all kidding aside.

Just one question:

Why do you think that nothing was created?

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14-11-2014, 02:39 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(14-11-2014 01:34 PM)Free Wrote:  I do not see anything that was created on earth. Not one single thing was created here. Everything continuously gets re-shaped/recycled into something else. This I accept as a truth.

Agreed, at least as long as we are not getting down to the quantum level. I don't know if that shows creation ex nihilo or not because I do not understand it.

Quote:It is by this employment of reason that I cannot accept the Big Bang as a creator of all that exists. To me, the Big Bang is just another example of energy, matter and spacetime being reshaped and recycled from a prior existence.

Maybe. Scientists have traced our universe back to a tiny fraction of a second after it occurred. It represents the point at which the universe as we see it began. Whether that was creation ex nihilo or ex materia is unknown. If it was ex nihilo then the cause (if that term even makes sense) is not part of the universe as we know it and applying the laws of physics as we understand them within the universe to anything outside it is a category error.

Quote:It's an infinite cycle that has probably happened an infinite number of times.

Again, maybe. With no evidence it is all speculation. Maybe this is the first time a universe formed. Maybe it was just a dense concentration of energy in a state of timelessness until something made time start and it started expanding. Maybe there is a multiverse spawning new universes repeatedly. Maybe there is one reality that goes through cycles. Maybe it is something much stranger than any of us have conceived.

Quote:The universe is either infinite or it's not. Since we do not know the answer either way, we cannot make a positive claim either way. Therefore until it can be demonstrated that the universe is finite, then I cannot accept that the Big Bang created it.

I think I actually agree as long as you are saying "I don't accept that the big bang represents creation ex nihilo" and not "the big bang does not represent creation ex nihilo". I don't know that anybody who knows anything about it claims that it was the creation of the universe though, at least not without the "as we see it" qualifier. The big bang may be a creation event or it may be a transition event.

Quote:And even if the universe is finite, it will still not answer my question what preceded the Big Bang.

Nobody does

Quote:Is there such a thing as creation?

I don't think that is answerable at our current level of knowledge.

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14-11-2014, 02:41 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(14-11-2014 02:17 PM)Free Wrote:  ...........Just one question:

Why do you think that nothing was created?

What nothing?

As far out/back that we can see....... We still see something.

Beyond/behind that 'something' is really good guess work and speculation (As in they know it must have been even hatter and denser and a whole lot of things)

Such that, as people have said, pretty much everything that we know OF current reality... simply doesn't really work any more.

Again, that's all still 'within' our reality.


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14-11-2014, 02:54 PM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2014 02:57 PM by cjlr.)
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(14-11-2014 01:34 PM)Free Wrote:  
(14-11-2014 12:24 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I hold a BSc and MSc in physics (with specialisations in photonics and condensed matter respectively). I am starting a PhD program in January.

Shall I repeat my earlier question to you? Recall:
If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?

This question cannot be answered within any current understanding. It simply does not make sense. The only fair response is not to humour it - because "we don't know everything lol" - but to explain how and why it is a bad question.

Supposing that we did evolve from monkeys does not conclusively mean that monkey's evolved.

No - but that isn't the point of the question.

"If we evolved from monkeys, then why are there still monkeys?" is a question that cannot even be asked without a fundamental misunderstanding of what "evolution" means. In precisely the same was as "what's outside the universe"...

(14-11-2014 01:34 PM)Free Wrote:  The answers I am seeking are directly related to the topic in question, and my first response of "Ah yes, the nature of existence."

It is not so much about the origin of the universe, education in physics, cosmology etc, as it about a philosophical view.

"Is there such think as Creation?"

I simply submit there is not, and have posted my reasons previous. Creation implies a creator, be it a god of some sort, the Big Bang, or by any other means.

What we know is limited by what we observe. The boundary on our observation is clear and finite.

You can freely make guesses and assumptions about conditions beyond that - but what possible way to justify them is there?

(14-11-2014 01:34 PM)Free Wrote:  There are those here who have said that I should not employ my life experience on earth as a kind of guide as to how things work in the universe. I submit in some cases this may be true, but in many cases- important ones- it may not be true.

In the "well, nobody really knows anything, maaan" sense?

Macroscopic intuition based on personal experience has proven spectacularly useless in studying modern physics at microscopic and cosmological scales.
(hell, we can't even intuit classical mechanics properly!)

(14-11-2014 01:34 PM)Free Wrote:  I do not see anything that was created on earth. Not one single thing was created here. Everything continuously gets re-shaped/recycled into something else. This I accept as a truth.

Yes, but you'd have to first define "create" and "thing".

It is possible, indeed observable, that zero-energy quantum fluctuations cand and do occur. Does that inform your definitions of the above? Why or why not?

(14-11-2014 01:34 PM)Free Wrote:  It is by this employment of reason that I cannot accept the Big Bang as a creator of all that exists. To me, the Big Bang is just another example of energy, matter and spacetime being reshaped and recycled from a prior existence. It's an infinite cycle that has probably happened an infinite number of times.

The universe is either infinite or it's not. Since we do not know the answer either way, we cannot make a positive claim either way. Therefore until it can be demonstrated that the universe is finite, then I cannot accept that the Big Bang created it.

And even if the universe is finite, it will still not answer my question what preceded the Big Bang.

The universe as we can observe it is finite.

For you to make claims beyond that observation is by definition baseless. That is why I (and others here) reject those claims - it's just special pleading.
(or worse yet, of the "but you can't prove it wrong" flavour...)

The history of modern science - heck, all science - has been an exercise in showing that our generalisations (from incredibly limited personal experience) are consistently terrible.

Once upon a time it was "intuitive" that heavier objects fell faster than lighter objects. Once upon a time it was "intuitive" that the sun circled the Earth. Once upon a time it was "intuitive" that maggots spontaneously emerged from waste. Once upon a time it was "intuitive" that light spectra were continuous. Once upon a time it was "intuitive" that continents couldn't move. Et cetera ad nauseum.

(14-11-2014 01:34 PM)Free Wrote:  It's been said, "From nothing, nothing comes." Lawrence Krauss, physicist, defines nothing as an "unstable quantum vacuum that contains no particles." But does this physical explanation, among others, of how the universe arose not beg the question?

After all, when one must use something "physical" to explain nothingness it is not unlike using the bible to demonstrate the existence of God.

Not really. The point of such statements (which reflect common scientific understanding - it's hardly just Krauss saying the like) is that to speak of "nothing" one must define "nothing". Within our experience and observation, well - that's the best we've come up with.

(14-11-2014 01:34 PM)Free Wrote:  But I digress ...

Is there such a thing as creation?

That reality exists seems a fairly reasonable starting position. That our observations of it are finite is likewise unassailable.

Modern science makes the vaguest of tentative guesses as to what exists beyond our present ability to observe. When we say the big bang is the "beginning" of the universe we mean that it is the beginning of present, observable conditions.
(perhaps that is not always made sufficiently clear?)

But to just make wild assertions about it seems, to me, less useful...

Consider, for example, the universe expanding "into" something. What is this "something"? If it obeys all the same physical laws as the universe itself, then it can't be empty as per the aformentioned physically justifiable definition of "nothing". If the universe is expanding "into" something that expansion has an edge - we observe no such thing. If it's expanding "into" something it must either be taking in or displacing something - we observe no such thing.

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14-11-2014, 02:59 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(14-11-2014 02:04 PM)Free Wrote:  I contend that there is no such thing as time at all.

Wink

Well, I think that's a complex topic to discuss. In order to live in this world, it is easier for us to just assume it does. I think physicists agree that it does, but why do you think it doesn't? What supports your statement?

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14-11-2014, 03:06 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(14-11-2014 02:59 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  
(14-11-2014 02:04 PM)Free Wrote:  I contend that there is no such thing as time at all.

Wink

Well, I think that's a complex topic to discuss. In order to live in this world, it is easier for us to just assume it does. I think physicists agree that it does, but why do you think it doesn't? What supports your statement?

It may well be an emergent artifact of perception - a truly isentropic system would be fully time-reversible and thus effectively timeless - but as an aspect of all observable reaction within our universe, it would seem fairly empirical...

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14-11-2014, 04:35 PM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2014 04:52 PM by Free.)
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(14-11-2014 02:59 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  
(14-11-2014 02:04 PM)Free Wrote:  I contend that there is no such thing as time at all.

Wink

Well, I think that's a complex topic to discuss. In order to live in this world, it is easier for us to just assume it does. I think physicists agree that it does, but why do you think it doesn't? What supports your statement?

Of course I cannot prove anything, but since I am still of the school of thought that existence as a whole did not begin with the Big Bang, and in fact never had a beginning at all, then time as we know it is a byproduct of the Big Bang, and is merely a finite measuring stick stuck somewhere inside an infinite and eternal greater existence.

Sitting on my tech bench right now is some bubble wrap that was used to package a hard disk drive. Each time I look at it I see something akin to a multi-verse. But my idea of existence is not like that multi-verse, but more like bubbles inside bubbles that are infinitely inside bubbles. And these bubbles can expand into other bubbles and retract.

The only word that comes close to what I envision are "dimensions," and they are infinite.

As science fiction-y as all this sounds, it's the only thing that makes any sense at all to me, and where there is infinity, there is eternity, and when you have eternity ... you have no time.

Crazy as it sounds, I think we are existing inside a bubble, inside a bubble, inside a bubble ...

Just no way to articulate it properly.

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14-11-2014, 05:18 PM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2014 05:23 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
Bubbles universe ideas are another proposed thought of concept and not really poorly described by that, unless you're thinking something other than what they are. They are similar and in some ways, technically one of multiple Multiverse hypotheses. I'm not sure if your idea of bubbles is the same as these other concepts, but there is more than one bubble hypothesis. Some view it as multiple Universes popping off of each other like soap bubbles foaming up or some views is bubbles stacking upon each other but being able to bubble in and out of each bubble layer.

I wouldn't get though, is even within the bubble concept, there still is entropy, and how does entropy which is the observable action of time get explained?

I'm not sure what makes you come to the mindstate of only one thing making sense to you. I can't say much about it, but I think this is the area of study where different opinions definately have close to equal validity more than thinking one seems ideal. Since the possibility to find evidence for these is still in infantile stages for these studies.

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