Is there such thing as "Creation"?
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08-11-2014, 11:17 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
Why would anything exist without a creator? You either need to throw logic and reason out the window or use logic and reason!

If you use logic and reason, then nothing needs a creator and is a process of random changes and natural laws of existence itself.
If there is a creator, then that creator needs a creator and infinite regression happens. The only possible way to eliminate infinite regression is to take everything away.


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09-11-2014, 05:48 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(08-11-2014 10:20 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(08-11-2014 09:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Yeah, I know. but you remove the energy/matter and then space itself disappears.

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Specifically -

Quote:
I suppose the only thing you can do is to take Einstein equations and put the stress-energy tensor to 0. You obtain a Ricci-flat universe. – Bzazz Jan 29 '13 at 23:46

Generally -

Quote:Can space exist by itself without matter or energy around?

No. Experiments continue to show that there is no 'space' that stands apart from space-time itself...no arena in which matter, energy and gravity operate which is not affected by matter, energy and gravity. General relativity tells us that what we call space is just another feature of the gravitational field of the universe, so space and space-time can and do not exist apart from the matter and energy that creates the gravitational field. This is not speculation, but sound observation.

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09-11-2014, 09:21 AM (This post was last modified: 09-11-2014 10:39 AM by Free.)
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(08-11-2014 11:17 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Why would anything exist without a creator? You either need to throw logic and reason out the window or use logic and reason!

If you use logic and reason, then nothing needs a creator and is a process of random changes and natural laws of existence itself.
If there is a creator, then that creator needs a creator and infinite regression happens. The only possible way to eliminate infinite regression is to take everything away.

From a strictly logical point of view, if "infinite" regression is the result of a creator that needs a creator, then the infinite regression is eternal.

Therefore, regardless of how you look at it- whether we use the "creator needs a creator" model or "there was no creator" model- the conclusion is the same:

Existence is eternal and infinite.

Please note that even a "creator" would be an existence. For example, if we accept the Big Bang as being the "creator," then the infinite regression is in play.

Oh yes, I have heard of the theory where existence came from "nothing," but in all honesty, when we speak of "nothingness" we are speaking about a non existence, and to accept that existence came from a non existence is folly, no matter what the science says.

Science does not need to be so desperate to explain the nature of existence with such theories. What science needs to do is simply a matter of "acceptance" of the eternal and infinite universe.

In my opinion, the universe is without dimensions. It can not be measured in any way whatsoever. It is not "one" for it is not even capable of being assigned a numerical value at all. It is beyond the capability of mathematics. It is beyond the capability of applying logic and reason.

The universe is just what it is; an immeasurable, eternal, and infinite existence.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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09-11-2014, 10:44 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 09:21 AM)Free Wrote:  ... and to accept that existence came from a non existence is folly, no matter what the science says.

Whenever people get into the arguments involving nothing becoming something or an infinite number of events having to have occurred I'm always reminded of Dawkin's "Middle World". Out brains evolved to handle problems involving objects of a given size range and events occurring over a given time span. "Nothing" and "Infinity" just don't compute.

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09-11-2014, 10:48 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 10:44 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(09-11-2014 09:21 AM)Free Wrote:  ... and to accept that existence came from a non existence is folly, no matter what the science says.

Whenever people get into the arguments involving nothing becoming something or an infinite number of events having to have occurred I'm always reminded of Dawkin's "Middle World". Out brains evolved to handle problems involving objects of a given size range and events occurring over a given time span. "Nothing" and "Infinity" just don't compute.

I make notes on personal observations and your post reminded me of this one.

"To most of us the concept of long periods of time are incomprehensible, anything beyond our own lifespan is fuzzy, a millennium is spoken of but hardly understood and eons are unknowable. Yet we think we can place limits on what happens between chemicals and to organisms over that scale of time. Throw in unfathomable numbers of cells dividing and living and interacting and dividing and procreating and look at us now, thinking we are above the fray of evolution and believe ourselves to be special and outside the natural world; how we deceive ourselves is comical." ~ FC

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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09-11-2014, 10:51 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 10:44 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(09-11-2014 09:21 AM)Free Wrote:  ... and to accept that existence came from a non existence is folly, no matter what the science says.

Whenever people get into the arguments involving nothing becoming something or an infinite number of events having to have occurred I'm always reminded of Dawkin's "Middle World". Out brains evolved to handle problems involving objects of a given size range and events occurring over a given time span. "Nothing" and "Infinity" just don't compute.

As contradictory as this sounds, there is no such thing as "nothing." It is a paradox beyond our ability to reason.

Wink

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09-11-2014, 10:55 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 09:21 AM)Free Wrote:  In my opinion, the universe is without dimensions. It can not be measured in any way whatsoever. It is not "one" for it is not even capable of being assigned a numerical value at all. It is beyond the capability of mathematics. It is beyond the capability of applying logic and reason.

The fringe of physics and the tao hint at a simultaneity of both one and zero which causes havoc in our sequential logic processors. Tongue

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09-11-2014, 10:57 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 10:55 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(09-11-2014 09:21 AM)Free Wrote:  In my opinion, the universe is without dimensions. It can not be measured in any way whatsoever. It is not "one" for it is not even capable of being assigned a numerical value at all. It is beyond the capability of mathematics. It is beyond the capability of applying logic and reason.

The fringe of physics and the tao hint at a simultaneity of both one and zero which causes havoc in our sequential logic processors. Tongue

Abso-fucking-lutely.

Tongue

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09-11-2014, 11:09 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 10:51 AM)Free Wrote:  As contradictory as this sounds, there is no such thing as "nothing." It is a paradox beyond our ability to reason.
Just because we can't "reason" it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

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09-11-2014, 11:12 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 11:09 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  
(09-11-2014 10:51 AM)Free Wrote:  As contradictory as this sounds, there is no such thing as "nothing." It is a paradox beyond our ability to reason.
Just because we can't "reason" it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Nothingness implies a non existence.

In the strictest sense, if something is not there, then it simply does not exist.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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