Is there such thing as "Creation"?
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09-11-2014, 11:22 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 10:48 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(09-11-2014 10:44 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Whenever people get into the arguments involving nothing becoming something or an infinite number of events having to have occurred I'm always reminded of Dawkin's "Middle World". Out brains evolved to handle problems involving objects of a given size range and events occurring over a given time span. "Nothing" and "Infinity" just don't compute.

I make notes on personal observations and your post reminded me of this one.

"To most of us the concept of long periods of time are incomprehensible, anything beyond our own lifespan is fuzzy, a millennium is spoken of but hardly understood and eons are unknowable. Yet we think we can place limits on what happens between chemicals and to organisms over that scale of time. Throw in unfathomable numbers of cells dividing and living and interacting and dividing and procreating and look at us now, thinking we are above the fray of evolution and believe ourselves to be special and outside the natural world; how we deceive ourselves is comical." ~ FC

Yep, and welcome to the intellectual event horizon, where logic and reason are forced to curve into a quagmire of fuck.

Bowing

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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09-11-2014, 11:45 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 11:22 AM)Free Wrote:  Yep, and welcome to the intellectual event horizon, where logic and reason are forced to curve into a quagmire of fuck.

Bowing

I don't know what that means but I agree!

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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09-11-2014, 11:48 AM
Re: RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 11:22 AM)Free Wrote:  
(09-11-2014 10:48 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  I make notes on personal observations and your post reminded me of this one.

"To most of us the concept of long periods of time are incomprehensible, anything beyond our own lifespan is fuzzy, a millennium is spoken of but hardly understood and eons are unknowable. Yet we think we can place limits on what happens between chemicals and to organisms over that scale of time. Throw in unfathomable numbers of cells dividing and living and interacting and dividing and procreating and look at us now, thinking we are above the fray of evolution and believe ourselves to be special and outside the natural world; how we deceive ourselves is comical." ~ FC

Yep, and welcome to the intellectual event horizon, where logic and reason are forced to curve into a quagmire of fuck.

Bowing

From a pragmatist point of view nothing (and infinite) are potentialities that are incredible useful mathematical tools. Anyone with even a basic understanding of calculus has no issues using either of them routinely. They are honestly rather mundane. (If they do have issues then they are likely struggling in their courses). Functionally they are no different than any other mathematical object.

Logic and reason are forced into a quagmire by these objects only when one is tempted to develop philosophical underpinnings for them.

But! This is typical of ANY object or concept that happens to have the misfortune of having philosophy imposed upon it lol!

Fortunately philosophy rarely impedes the real-world usefulness of things.
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09-11-2014, 12:18 PM (This post was last modified: 09-11-2014 12:36 PM by Free.)
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 11:48 AM)photon9 Wrote:  
(09-11-2014 11:22 AM)Free Wrote:  Yep, and welcome to the intellectual event horizon, where logic and reason are forced to curve into a quagmire of fuck.

Bowing

From a pragmatist point of view nothing (and infinite) are potentialities that are incredible useful mathematical tools. Anyone with even a basic understanding of calculus has no issues using either of them routinely. They are honestly rather mundane. (If they do have issues then they are likely struggling in their courses). Functionally they are no different than any other mathematical object.

Logic and reason are forced into a quagmire by these objects only when one is tempted to develop philosophical underpinnings for them.

But! This is typical of ANY object or concept that happens to have the misfortune of having philosophy imposed upon it lol!

Fortunately philosophy rarely impedes the real-world usefulness of things.

In my opinion, mathematics is a concept that is subject to the limitations of the human being's capacity to process. Specifically, we are restricted from a greater understanding of greater mathematical concepts due to the physical limitations of our brains.

Yet our arrogance forces us to not accept that there are some things we are simply incapable of understanding due to our limitations. We tend to ignore the fact that we are but a slightly more intellectually evolved animal living on an insignificant planet in an infinite universe.

If, as I suggest, the universe is indeed infinite and eternal, then that means that far greater intelligent lifeforms positively exist within our universe. It's not even a matter of probabilities or possibilities, but a statement of fact whereas since the universe would be infinite, so then would be the probabilities and possibilities, which would make it impossible for greater intelligent lifeforms to not exist elsewhere.

I suspect that the human being is intellectually insufficient and a non factor just in our own galaxy (let alone the universe), and most likely an uninteresting specimen to the majority of greater life forms.

We are a boring lot, unfortunately.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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09-11-2014, 04:08 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 12:18 PM)Free Wrote:  If, as I suggest, the universe is indeed infinite and eternal
The "stuff" of the universe may be eternal, but the universe as we know it in its current state is not. It is ~15 billion years old.

(09-11-2014 12:18 PM)Free Wrote:  then that means that far greater intelligent lifeforms positively exist within our universe.
And there again. If you you're going state something as absolute fact, not provisional fact, you need something to back it, not just a 'logical argument'. IE, that would mean you have evidence to show.

The only thing we can deal with are the possibilities and probabilities of life forming within the last ~15 billion years.
The possibility is 100%, because we're here.
The probability is unknown, and will be until we figure how life got here in the first place.

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09-11-2014, 04:25 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 04:08 PM)LostLocke Wrote:  
(09-11-2014 12:18 PM)Free Wrote:  If, as I suggest, the universe is indeed infinite and eternal
The "stuff" of the universe may be eternal, but the universe as we know it in its current state is not. It is ~15 billion years old.

You are speaking about the "observable" universe as being 15 billion years old, and with that I agree. But it was not so long ago that it was thought to be much younger, which only demonstrates that as our technology allows us to see further and further into the past, the age of the observable universe will continue to increase.



Quote:
(09-11-2014 12:18 PM)Free Wrote:  then that means that far greater intelligent lifeforms positively exist within our universe.
And there again. If you you're going state something as absolute fact, not provisional fact, you need something to back it, not just a 'logical argument'. IE, that would mean you have evidence to show.

The only evidence that would be acceptable to most people is for an intelligent being to come down here from some other planet and say, "Hey! How the fuck are ya?"

But my position is strictly theoretical. If the universe is infinite, then both probabilities and possibilities would also be infinite. If they are both infinite, then it is inevitable that superior intelligent life does indeed exist elsewhere.

After all, this planet Earth itself demonstrates proof positive of intelligent life in the universe, and that is direct evidence to support my theory.

Quote:The only thing we can deal with are the possibilities and probabilities of life forming within the last ~15 billion years.
The possibility is 100%, because we're here.
The probability is unknown, and will be until we figure how life got here in the first place.

According to what is observable, agreed. Wink

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09-11-2014, 04:29 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 09:21 AM)Free Wrote:  
(08-11-2014 11:17 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Why would anything exist without a creator? You either need to throw logic and reason out the window or use logic and reason!

If you use logic and reason, then nothing needs a creator and is a process of random changes and natural laws of existence itself.
If there is a creator, then that creator needs a creator and infinite regression happens. The only possible way to eliminate infinite regression is to take everything away.

From a strictly logical point of view, if "infinite" regression is the result of a creator that needs a creator, then the infinite regression is eternal.

Therefore, regardless of how you look at it- whether we use the "creator needs a creator" model or "there was no creator" model- the conclusion is the same:

Existence is eternal and infinite.

Please note that even a "creator" would be an existence. For example, if we accept the Big Bang as being the "creator," then the infinite regression is in play.

Oh yes, I have heard of the theory where existence came from "nothing," but in all honesty, when we speak of "nothingness" we are speaking about a non existence, and to accept that existence came from a non existence is folly, no matter what the science says.

Science does not need to be so desperate to explain the nature of existence with such theories. What science needs to do is simply a matter of "acceptance" of the eternal and infinite universe.

In my opinion, the universe is without dimensions. It can not be measured in any way whatsoever. It is not "one" for it is not even capable of being assigned a numerical value at all. It is beyond the capability of mathematics. It is beyond the capability of applying logic and reason.

The universe is just what it is; an immeasurable, eternal, and infinite existence.

Except for the little matter of General Relativity which tells us there is no such thing as absolute time or absolute position,
in fact there is no time without space because space-time is all one. It also says our universe had a beginning.

We can't actually say anything meaningful about "before the Big Bang". Maybe when we have a theory of Everything we can, but not yet.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-11-2014, 04:40 PM (This post was last modified: 09-11-2014 04:46 PM by Free.)
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 04:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-11-2014 09:21 AM)Free Wrote:  From a strictly logical point of view, if "infinite" regression is the result of a creator that needs a creator, then the infinite regression is eternal.

Therefore, regardless of how you look at it- whether we use the "creator needs a creator" model or "there was no creator" model- the conclusion is the same:

Existence is eternal and infinite.

Please note that even a "creator" would be an existence. For example, if we accept the Big Bang as being the "creator," then the infinite regression is in play.

Oh yes, I have heard of the theory where existence came from "nothing," but in all honesty, when we speak of "nothingness" we are speaking about a non existence, and to accept that existence came from a non existence is folly, no matter what the science says.

Science does not need to be so desperate to explain the nature of existence with such theories. What science needs to do is simply a matter of "acceptance" of the eternal and infinite universe.

In my opinion, the universe is without dimensions. It can not be measured in any way whatsoever. It is not "one" for it is not even capable of being assigned a numerical value at all. It is beyond the capability of mathematics. It is beyond the capability of applying logic and reason.

The universe is just what it is; an immeasurable, eternal, and infinite existence.

Except for the little matter of General Relativity which tells us there is no such thing as absolute time or absolute position,
in fact there is no time without space because space-time is all one. It also says our universe had a beginning.

We can't actually say anything meaningful about "before the Big Bang". Maybe when we have a theory of Everything we can, but not yet.

The problem with the "it also says we has a beginning" implies a creator, whether it was a nonsensical god thing, Big Bang, or whatever. Here we go with infinite regression again.

No matter what Relativity says, we are still stuck with either infinite regression or eternal-ism, and if it is infinite regression, then it is eternal-ism anyways.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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09-11-2014, 05:05 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 04:40 PM)Free Wrote:  
(09-11-2014 04:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  Except for the little matter of General Relativity which tells us there is no such thing as absolute time or absolute position,
in fact there is no time without space because space-time is all one. It also says our universe had a beginning.

We can't actually say anything meaningful about "before the Big Bang". Maybe when we have a theory of Everything we can, but not yet.

The problem with the "it also says we has a beginning" implies a creator, whether it was a nonsensical god thing, Big Bang, or whatever. Here we go with infinite regression again.

No matter what Relativity says, we are still stuck with either infinite regression or eternal-ism, and if it is infinite regression, then it is eternal-ism anyways.

Nope, false dichotomy because we don't know. The reality may be nothing we have ever conceived.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-11-2014, 05:27 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 05:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-11-2014 04:40 PM)Free Wrote:  The problem with the "it also says we has a beginning" implies a creator, whether it was a nonsensical god thing, Big Bang, or whatever. Here we go with infinite regression again.

No matter what Relativity says, we are still stuck with either infinite regression or eternal-ism, and if it is infinite regression, then it is eternal-ism anyways.

Nope, false dichotomy because we don't know. The reality may be nothing we have ever conceived.

Or it may be something incapable of knowing. If the universe is infinite, we could never know it, and since it would be something we could never know, then it's not matter of "we don't know" or "we do know."

Imagine that for a moment; we would be completely incapable of knowledge in this respect.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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