Is there such thing as "Creation"?
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09-11-2014, 05:48 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 05:27 PM)Free Wrote:  
(09-11-2014 05:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  Nope, false dichotomy because we don't know. The reality may be nothing we have ever conceived.

Or it may be something incapable of knowing. If the universe is infinite, we could never know it, and since it would be something we could never know, then it's not matter of "we don't know" or "we do know."

Imagine that for a moment; we would be completely incapable of knowledge in this respect.

We're pretty damn sure that our universe is not infinite.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-11-2014, 06:10 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 05:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-11-2014 05:27 PM)Free Wrote:  Or it may be something incapable of knowing. If the universe is infinite, we could never know it, and since it would be something we could never know, then it's not matter of "we don't know" or "we do know."

Imagine that for a moment; we would be completely incapable of knowledge in this respect.

We're pretty damn sure that our universe is not infinite.

Based upon observation that would appear to be the case. Yet, we cannot claim it as fact and I suspect that claim will never be made.

Let's not forget that the purported ages of the universe has varied over the years.

Since the observable universe appears to be expanding, then the obvious question is ... what is it expanding into? Nothing? A non existence?

The problems with a finite universe are obvious and numerous.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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09-11-2014, 10:47 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
The natural world moves and operates without my consent. Always has. Always will.
This bothers people when something is out of their control, just like a herd of charging cattle, a tornado, a hurricane , etc.

It makes us feel powerless and that's a terrible feeling.
It's also a terrible feeling to not know the explanation for why something is happening.

We can't explain why nature exists.
We only know that it does and we know that we can't control it.

What bigger monster is there than something we can't control and is all around us at all times.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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09-11-2014, 11:37 PM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 06:10 PM)Free Wrote:  
(09-11-2014 05:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  We're pretty damn sure that our universe is not infinite.

Based upon observation that would appear to be the case. Yet, we cannot claim it as fact and I suspect that claim will never be made.

All observation points towards current conditions having a fixed origin point.

(09-11-2014 06:10 PM)Free Wrote:  Let's not forget that the purported ages of the universe has varied over the years.

So what?

(09-11-2014 06:10 PM)Free Wrote:  Since the observable universe appears to be expanding, then the obvious question is ... what is it expanding into? Nothing? A non existence?

That doesn't really make sense as a question.

(09-11-2014 06:10 PM)Free Wrote:  The problems with a finite universe are obvious and numerous.

... such as?

... this is my signature!
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10-11-2014, 12:22 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 06:10 PM)Free Wrote:  The problems with a finite universe are obvious and numerous.

When I think about it, time and space can neither be finite or infinite. Both possiblilities lead to absurd conclusions (on cell so not going into it). Which to me suggests it's something even weirder, something brain-breakingly unituitive and outside our realm of thinking.
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10-11-2014, 12:37 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 06:10 PM)Free Wrote:  Since the observable universe appears to be expanding, then the obvious question is ... what is it expanding into? Nothing? A non existence?
I don't think it makes sense to ask "what is it expanding into?"
I understand why you ask this question. I think you are probably assuming some kind of euclidean 3 dimensions that go on forever.

But spacetime is non euclidian. There is no edge to spacetime, there is no outside. Not because there is a barrier though. This doesn't mean that the universe is infinite either. If our universe is closed and you head in a particular direction without ever turning, it is possible that you come to a point which is behind where you started.
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10-11-2014, 01:24 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 04:25 PM)Free Wrote:  ...
You are speaking about the "observable" universe as being 15 billion years old, and with that I agree.
...

Glad you pointed that out.

The unobserved... dark matter and such ... is made up of space / time, matter / energy from other universes that exit at different space / time ratios to our own.

This matter can only be observed by us when the now of our universe coincides with the now of the other faster or slower universes.

This is why we think we see virtual particles popping in and out of existence. They are not doing this, they exist in another universe but we only see them when our 'nows' align.

Bloody obvious, really.

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10-11-2014, 03:41 AM
Re: RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(10-11-2014 01:24 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(09-11-2014 04:25 PM)Free Wrote:  ...
You are speaking about the "observable" universe as being 15 billion years old, and with that I agree.
...

Glad you pointed that out.

The unobserved... dark matter and such ... is made up of space / time, matter / energy from other universes that exit at different space / time ratios to our own.

This matter can only be observed by us when the now of our universe coincides with the now of the other faster or slower universes.

This is why we think we see virtual particles popping in and out of existence. They are not doing this, they exist in another universe but we only see them when our 'nows' align.

Bloody obvious, really.

Drinking Beverage
It seems you have come from an alternate universe where all of these hypotheses have been confirmed.
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10-11-2014, 04:25 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(10-11-2014 03:41 AM)photon9 Wrote:  It seems you have come from an alternate universe where all of these hypotheses have been confirmed.

If you knew what else is in DLJ's universe you'd wanna live there too Weeping

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-11-2014, 07:20 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(09-11-2014 06:10 PM)Free Wrote:  
(09-11-2014 05:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  We're pretty damn sure that our universe is not infinite.

Based upon observation that would appear to be the case. Yet, we cannot claim it as fact and I suspect that claim will never be made.

Let's not forget that the purported ages of the universe has varied over the years.

Since the observable universe appears to be expanding, then the obvious question is ... what is it expanding into? Nothing? A non existence?

The problems with a finite universe are obvious and numerous.

All scientific theories are provisional. Don't confuse your inability to conceive of a possible answer with what reality is or is not.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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