Is there such thing as "Creation"?
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11-11-2014, 09:16 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 09:10 AM)Free Wrote:  
(10-11-2014 09:28 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  It's been said before, but maybe this isn't getting to you.

To say, What is it expanding into... is a question that asserts there is something that is in place of being answered as "what". That's an invalid question. A more legitimately valid question would be. Does it expand into something? A question that doesn't already make an assumption. It is "Most definitely" expanding into something isn't sound... based on what do you make such assertions and claims?

If you understood well known and talked about scientific understanding of the bigbang, even to general pop-culture influenced science talks, you could know the origin of the big-bang in the manner you speak of isn't known. It's a not yet known claim that's not an invalidation of anything. The big bang is the furthest element of our universe. It coming from something "else" is invalid because there is no evidence of anything else prior because it's the visible origin to space/time itself.

None of this is logically acceptable.

Everything last thing we know comes to us from the existence of people, places, time, objects, etc.

Nothingness is a non existence, therefore the universe cannot logically expand into a non existence. Hence, if it is expanding, then it is definitely logically sound to conclude that it is expanding into something, based upon everything we currently know about existence.

I mean seriously, how can things go anywhere if there is no where to go? It's really that simple. If there was no place for the Big Bang to expand to, then we would not exist, and neither would anything else.

I can accept that the origin of the Big bang is "unknown," and always have accepted that. But by no means whatsoever does that indicate that the Big Bang did not have an origin.

Things simply do not appear from a non existence. They either come from somewhere, or they go somewhere, and if we accept- for example- that the universe is expanding, then it is definitely going "somewhere."

No.. it's not really that simple.. no it's not

That's just an assertion. You have to scientifically demonstrate a reason in physics or other fields to WHY that is actually the case for it to be anything but a blank assertion.

We don't have any example of something else fitting the description of spacetime to conclude space-time MUST be expanding into something.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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11-11-2014, 09:26 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 09:16 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(11-11-2014 09:10 AM)Free Wrote:  None of this is logically acceptable.

Everything last thing we know comes to us from the existence of people, places, time, objects, etc.

Nothingness is a non existence, therefore the universe cannot logically expand into a non existence. Hence, if it is expanding, then it is definitely logically sound to conclude that it is expanding into something, based upon everything we currently know about existence.

I mean seriously, how can things go anywhere if there is no where to go? It's really that simple. If there was no place for the Big Bang to expand to, then we would not exist, and neither would anything else.

I can accept that the origin of the Big bang is "unknown," and always have accepted that. But by no means whatsoever does that indicate that the Big Bang did not have an origin.

Things simply do not appear from a non existence. They either come from somewhere, or they go somewhere, and if we accept- for example- that the universe is expanding, then it is definitely going "somewhere."

No.. it's not really that simple.. no it's not

That's just an assertion. You have to scientifically demonstrate a reason in physics or other fields to WHY that is actually the case for it to be anything but a blank assertion.

We don't have any example of something else fitting the description of spacetime to conclude space-time MUST be expanding into something.

Oddly, the "reason" is easily demonstrated by reasoning.

So I will just ask you a very simple question;

Do you know of anything that has the ability to go somewhere when there is no where to go?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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11-11-2014, 09:30 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 09:26 AM)Free Wrote:  
(11-11-2014 09:16 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  No.. it's not really that simple.. no it's not

That's just an assertion. You have to scientifically demonstrate a reason in physics or other fields to WHY that is actually the case for it to be anything but a blank assertion.

We don't have any example of something else fitting the description of spacetime to conclude space-time MUST be expanding into something.

Oddly, the "reason" is easily demonstrated by reasoning.

So I will just ask you a very simple question;

Do you know of anything that has the ability to go somewhere when there is no where to go?

In ignoring the obvious answer.. nope, but Is there any logical proof that something having the ability to go somewhere there is "no where to go" is impossible? NO, so to oust a claim by that reasoning ISN'T sound. Then when you study different behaviors you may actually come across something that is in that category of possibles.

You don't judge objects based on other objects completely irrelvant to their similar nature. You don't judge how well a banana will roll based on your known factors of how well apples roll simple because they are both fruit. You have to figure out the unique situations of the individual concept you're evaluation.

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11-11-2014, 09:31 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(10-11-2014 08:43 PM)Free Wrote:  
(10-11-2014 03:15 PM)cjlr Wrote:  It's demonstrably false?

Then by all means, demonstrate it as being false with actual evidence- not theory- but conclusive evidence.

It's demonstrably false.

Apparent motion of objects in the rest of the universe does not exhibit what it would need to for your odd proposal to work.

You don't get to say modern cosmology is wrong just because you don't understand it.

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11-11-2014, 09:32 AM (This post was last modified: 11-11-2014 09:39 AM by cjlr.)
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 09:26 AM)Free Wrote:  Oddly, the "reason" is easily demonstrated by reasoning.

So I will just ask you a very simple question;

Do you know of anything that has the ability to go somewhere when there is no where to go?

That's William Lane Craig level "reasoning", that.

"I've never seen a house pop into existence from nothing, therefore the universe didn't either, therefore God"

Uh... huh. That is, of course, not precisely what you've claimed, but...

Look, that the structure of the universe itself is, in fact, expanding is the only consistent, coherent model we have yet created for explaining all cosmological observation. Successfully proving that wrong would make you a shoe-in for a Nobel prize. "But MUH FEELS" is not proving that wrong.

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11-11-2014, 09:32 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 09:10 AM)Free Wrote:  
(10-11-2014 09:28 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  It's been said before, but maybe this isn't getting to you.

To say, What is it expanding into... is a question that asserts there is something that is in place of being answered as "what". That's an invalid question. A more legitimately valid question would be. Does it expand into something? A question that doesn't already make an assumption. It is "Most definitely" expanding into something isn't sound... based on what do you make such assertions and claims?

If you understood well known and talked about scientific understanding of the bigbang, even to general pop-culture influenced science talks, you could know the origin of the big-bang in the manner you speak of isn't known. It's a not yet known claim that's not an invalidation of anything. The big bang is the furthest element of our universe. It coming from something "else" is invalid because there is no evidence of anything else prior because it's the visible origin to space/time itself.

None of this is logically acceptable.

Everything last thing we know comes to us from the existence of people, places, time, objects, etc.

Nothingness is a non existence, therefore the universe cannot logically expand into a non existence. Hence, if it is expanding, then it is definitely logically sound to conclude that it is expanding into something, based upon everything we currently know about existence.

I mean seriously, how can things go anywhere if there is no where to go? It's really that simple. If there was no place for the Big Bang to expand to, then we would not exist, and neither would anything else.

I can accept that the origin of the Big bang is "unknown," and always have accepted that. But by no means whatsoever does that indicate that the Big Bang did not have an origin.

Things simply do not appear from a non existence. They either come from somewhere, or they go somewhere, and if we accept- for example- that the universe is expanding, then it is definitely going "somewhere."

Reality isn't limited by your incredulity nor have you supported your assertions.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-11-2014, 09:37 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 09:10 AM)Free Wrote:  None of this is logically acceptable.

Your assertions about what feels logical to you are not privileged.

(11-11-2014 09:10 AM)Free Wrote:  Nothingness is a non existence, therefore the universe cannot logically expand into a non existence.

Citation needed (who says that happens? why isn't it valid even if anyone does claim it, which, again, they don't? your naive intuition is not privileged). Hell, definition needed (what's "nothing"?).

(11-11-2014 09:10 AM)Free Wrote:  Hence, if it is expanding, then it is definitely logically sound to conclude that it is expanding into something, based upon everything we currently know about existence.

The universe is not expanding "into" anything.

No modern cosmological theory says it is. So far as I can tell only you (why?) say that it "must be" (why?) and ignore the part where, as mentioned, no modern theory says it is (why?).

(11-11-2014 09:10 AM)Free Wrote:  I can accept that the origin of the Big bang is "unknown," and always have accepted that. But by no means whatsoever does that indicate that the Big Bang did not have an origin.

That isn't the same question!

(11-11-2014 09:10 AM)Free Wrote:  Things simply do not appear from a non existence. They either come from somewhere, or they go somewhere, and if we accept- for example- that the universe is expanding, then it is definitely going "somewhere."

Even that - and I'll ignore that that's going full WLC - never go full WLC! - is not consistent.

"Something can't come from nothing therefore the universe can't expand" does not follow.

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11-11-2014, 09:40 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 09:30 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(11-11-2014 09:26 AM)Free Wrote:  Oddly, the "reason" is easily demonstrated by reasoning.

So I will just ask you a very simple question;

Do you know of anything that has the ability to go somewhere when there is no where to go?

In ignoring the obvious answer.. nope, but Is there any logical proof that something having the ability to go somewhere there is "no where to go" is impossible?

Not saying it is impossible, but by using the current state of our knowledge we can reasonably conclude that it is most improbable.

Quote: NO, so to oust a claim by that reasoning ISN'T sound.

If you do not think the reasoning is sound according to the current state of our knowledge, then please demonstrate- without theory- why it is not sound.

Quote:You don't judge objects based on other objects completely irrelvant to their similar nature. You don't judge how well a banana will roll based on your known factors of how well apples roll simple because they are both fruit. You have to figure out the unique situations of the individual concept you're evaluation.

This statement assumes that I am comparing observable existence to what is unknown (ie; origin of the Big Bang), when the fact is the comparison is impossible and thus the analogy false since you are comparing two known and observable objects (apples and bananas).

How does one compare what is observable to that which is not observable?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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11-11-2014, 09:45 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 09:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(11-11-2014 09:10 AM)Free Wrote:  None of this is logically acceptable.

Everything last thing we know comes to us from the existence of people, places, time, objects, etc.

Nothingness is a non existence, therefore the universe cannot logically expand into a non existence. Hence, if it is expanding, then it is definitely logically sound to conclude that it is expanding into something, based upon everything we currently know about existence.

I mean seriously, how can things go anywhere if there is no where to go? It's really that simple. If there was no place for the Big Bang to expand to, then we would not exist, and neither would anything else.

I can accept that the origin of the Big bang is "unknown," and always have accepted that. But by no means whatsoever does that indicate that the Big Bang did not have an origin.

Things simply do not appear from a non existence. They either come from somewhere, or they go somewhere, and if we accept- for example- that the universe is expanding, then it is definitely going "somewhere."

Reality isn't limited by your incredulity nor have you supported your assertions.

When science suggests that the universe is expanding into nothing, and that the Bang is the origin of existence, then those are positive claims.

The burden of proof is upon science to demonstrate those claims as being true.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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11-11-2014, 09:48 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 09:45 AM)Free Wrote:  
(11-11-2014 09:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  Reality isn't limited by your incredulity nor have you supported your assertions.

When science suggests that the universe is expanding into nothing, and that the Bang is the origin of existence, then those are positive claims.

The burden of proof is upon science to demonstrate those claims as being true.

"The universe is expanding into nothing".

No. "Science" does not "suggest" that. Only you do, as a straw man, for reasons I cannot quite comprehend. The universe is, however, expanding.

"The big bang is the origin of existence."

No. "Science" does not "suggest" that. The big bang is the origin of present conditions. No claim is made of conditions beyond it under any current cosmological theory.

It's easier to argue against things if you know what you're arguing against. The two claims as I have corrected them are extremely well attested; the onus is on you should you wish to challenge overwhelming consensus.

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