Is there such thing as "Creation"?
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11-11-2014, 09:55 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 09:40 AM)Free Wrote:  
(11-11-2014 09:30 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  In ignoring the obvious answer.. nope, but Is there any logical proof that something having the ability to go somewhere there is "no where to go" is impossible?

Not saying it is impossible, but by using the current state of our knowledge we can reasonably conclude that it is most improbable.

Quote: NO, so to oust a claim by that reasoning ISN'T sound.

If you do not think the reasoning is sound according to the current state of our knowledge, then please demonstrate- without theory- why it is not sound.

Quote:You don't judge objects based on other objects completely irrelvant to their similar nature. You don't judge how well a banana will roll based on your known factors of how well apples roll simple because they are both fruit. You have to figure out the unique situations of the individual concept you're evaluation.

This statement assumes that I am comparing observable existence to what is unknown (ie; origin of the Big Bang), when the fact is the comparison is impossible and thus the analogy false since you are comparing two known and observable objects (apples and bananas).

How does one compare what is observable to that which is not observable?

I've already told you, it isn't sound because you're not using valid premises. The knowledge we have had from observing prior to studying spacetime isn't consistent with how spacetime works. This same scenario played out when we started studying quantum physics. They don't measure up to our previous evolved understanding of how things work. Judging them based on those, prooves invalid and it's why to continue to say it as an argument against the research and studying done to understand them is unsound.

If you have no other example of anything that operates in the way space/time does, how are you judging it's potential to do something or not?

I have no clue what you're claiming is not observable that's being judged. It's like you're operating under the position that it doesn't make sense in "common sense" reasoning to you so it's invalid. Which is a preposterous and pretty much humanly held egotistical idea.

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11-11-2014, 10:05 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 09:37 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(11-11-2014 09:10 AM)Free Wrote:  None of this is logically acceptable.

Your assertions about what feels logical to you are not privileged.

So, I do not have the privilege of having an opinion? Interesting conclusion.

Quote:
(11-11-2014 09:10 AM)Free Wrote:  Nothingness is a non existence, therefore the universe cannot logically expand into a non existence.

Citation needed (who says that happens? why isn't it valid even if anyone does claim it, which, again, they don't? your naive intuition is not privileged). Hell, definition needed (what's "nothing"?).

Nothing is a non existence.

Quote:"Nothingness is the state of being nothing, the state of nonexistence of anything"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing

"something that is nonexistent"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nothingness

"nonexistence"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nothingness

How many definitions do you require?


Quote:
(11-11-2014 09:10 AM)Free Wrote:  Hence, if it is expanding, then it is definitely logically sound to conclude that it is expanding into something, based upon everything we currently know about existence.

The universe is not expanding "into" anything.

Then you are implying that it is going no where. So something is moving faster than the speed of light but it isn't going anywhere?

Wow .... interesting concept.

Drinking Beverage

Quote:No modern cosmological theory says it is. So far as I can tell only you (why?) say that it "must be" (why?) and ignore the part where, as mentioned, no modern theory says it is (why?).

Again, the universe expanded faster than the speed of light but didn't go anywhere?

Gotta love that logic. Consider

Quote:
(11-11-2014 09:10 AM)Free Wrote:  I can accept that the origin of the Big bang is "unknown," and always have accepted that. But by no means whatsoever does that indicate that the Big Bang did not have an origin.

That isn't the same question!

Yes? And?

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11-11-2014, 10:11 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
Free, it's not that simple. And you cannot apply your Earthly logic to what happens outside of Earth. What is valid here, is not valid outside, in the vacuum of space or even on another planet. Read this, it explains what I mean:

Quote:Scientific evidence in support of a theory sometimes takes you places where your senses have never been. Common sense is that human ability to assess a situation you have never seen before by invoking life experiences derived from your five senses. But twentieth-century science has largely been built upon data that was, and continues to be, collected with all manner of tools that enable us to see the universe in decidedly uncommon ways. As a consequence, while we have always required that a theory make mathematical sense, we no longer require that a theory make common sense. We simply demand that it be consistent with the results of observations and experiments. This posture has enabled profound, yet remarkably counterintuitive branches of physics, such as relativity, quantum mechanics, and big bang cosmology to arise.

Also watch this lecture by Neil deGrasse Tyson about the Big Bang. It's not that long and it will help you understand what is, also according to Mr. Tyson, a misunderstood scientific theory. I think it's relevant to this topic.

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11-11-2014, 10:12 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 10:05 AM)Free Wrote:  
(11-11-2014 09:37 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Your assertions about what feels logical to you are not privileged.

So, I do not have the privilege of having an opinion? Interesting conclusion.

I did not say you cannot possess opinions. That is a (deliberate?) misrepresentation of what I said.

I said that your opinions on cosmology are not privileged. They are ignorant and naive.

(11-11-2014 10:05 AM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:Citation needed (who says that happens? why isn't it valid even if anyone does claim it, which, again, they don't? your naive intuition is not privileged). Hell, definition needed (what's "nothing"?).

Nothing is a non existence.

Can nothing, then, exist itself? Is "non existence" possible? How do you know?

(11-11-2014 10:05 AM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:"Nothingness is the state of being nothing, the state of nonexistence of anything"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing

"something that is nonexistent"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nothingness

"nonexistence"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nothingness

How many definitions do you require?

"lol dictionary" is the beloved resource of the vacuous.

I'd prefer a substantive physical and scientific definition, and more to the point, I'd prefer you to relate this superficial assertion to any coherent theory of cosmology.

(11-11-2014 10:05 AM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:The universe is not expanding "into" anything.

Then you are implying that it is going no where.

No, I am not. You are inventing a false choice. Why?

Your feels - your naive, ignorant, subjective feels - are irrelevant.

(11-11-2014 10:05 AM)Free Wrote:  So something is moving faster than the speed of light but it isn't going anywhere?

Wow .... interesting concept.

Drinking Beverage

Just because you don't (or refuse to?) understand it, doesn't particularly matter.

The fabric of spacetime can - and does - expand faster than lightspeed.

The universe is expanding. Do you deny this? Do you deny the overwhelming preponderance of cosmological evidence? You're free to do so. How, then, would you interpret the evidence? If you can provide any proof whatsoever there's a Nobel prize in it for you.

(11-11-2014 10:05 AM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:No modern cosmological theory says it is. So far as I can tell only you (why?) say that it "must be" (why?) and ignore the part where, as mentioned, no modern theory says it is (why?).

Again, the universe expanded faster than the speed of light but didn't go anywhere?

"Go" and "anywhere" only possess meaning within the universe itself.

No modern cosmological theory makes any claim as to what is "outside" or "around" the universe - such supposition is indeed incoherent.

Only you make such groundless assertions. Why?

(11-11-2014 10:05 AM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:That isn't the same question!

Yes? And?

And that makes it a valid question, in marked contrast to your other bizarre fixation with ignorant, incoherent non-starter "objections".

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11-11-2014, 10:27 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 10:11 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  Free, it's not that simple. And you cannot apply your Earthly logic to what happens outside of Earth. What is valid here, is not valid outside, in the vacuum of space or even on another planet. Read this, it explains what I mean:

Quote:Scientific evidence in support of a theory sometimes takes you places where your senses have never been. Common sense is that human ability to assess a situation you have never seen before by invoking life experiences derived from your five senses. But twentieth-century science has largely been built upon data that was, and continues to be, collected with all manner of tools that enable us to see the universe in decidedly uncommon ways. As a consequence, while we have always required that a theory make mathematical sense, we no longer require that a theory make common sense. We simply demand that it be consistent with the results of observations and experiments. This posture has enabled profound, yet remarkably counterintuitive branches of physics, such as relativity, quantum mechanics, and big bang cosmology to arise.

Also watch this lecture by Neil deGrasse Tyson about the Big Bang. It's not that long and it will help you understand what is, also according to Mr. Tyson, a misunderstood scientific theory. I think it's relevant to this topic.

Thanks.

I have read so much and seen many lectures on the prevailing theories regarding Big Bang and find all of them very interesting.

My point here is to challenge the logic and reasoning that is either employed or non employed by my fellow atheists here, as well as to explore other possibilities to the nature of existence.

What I have learned here is how "some" of the atheists here vehemently confront the very same techniques we all use when when we debate the religious people who come here.

For example, logic tells me that if the universe is expanding, then it needs some where to go. I find absolutely nothing wrong with this assertion, and telling me that the universe is not expanding into anything logically asserts that it cannot possibly go anywhere if it cannot expand somewhere.

Perhaps you can help me with this logic and tell me exactly what is wrong with it.

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11-11-2014, 10:40 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 10:27 AM)Free Wrote:  For example, logic tells me that if the universe is expanding, then it needs some where to go.

Why? What "logic" is that?

There is no reason to blithely assume the universe as a whole is bound by the same rules as your own naive intuition and everyday experience.
(as by that "logic" most modern science is invalid - my cat can't be in two places at once so how can quantum mechanics be true lololol?/!!11one!)

Logic proceeds from premises. The logical process itself is entirely agnostic, indeed mechanistic. Therefore - what are your premises? By all evidence they are not valid, but I would still like you to make them explicit.

What premises are you insisting upon, with regards to the universe, its properties, and its history? And most importantly of all - where do these premises come from?
("my feels" is not a very good answer)

(11-11-2014 10:27 AM)Free Wrote:  I find absolutely nothing wrong with this assertion, and telling me that the universe is not expanding into anything logically asserts that it cannot possibly go anywhere if it cannot expand somewhere.

You are not going to have much luck if all you can do is construct a false choice and insist others abide by it.

If one does not accept your premise - "the universe is expanding into nothing" then rejecting that premise does not constitute asserting the converse, and certainly does not constitute offering an alternative which implicitly accepts the very premise just rejected.
A: "The universe is expanding into nothing?"
B: "No, it is not - to the extent that question even makes sense."
A: "But if it's expanding it has to expand into something. So you're saying it's not expanding?"
B: "It is expanding. It is not expanding into anything."
A: "But if it's expanding it has to expand into something!"
B: "Why?"
A: "Logic!"
B: "You keep using that word. I do not thing it means what you think it means."
etc.

The universe is not a box. The universe expanding does not mean it is a box getting pushed out from the inside. It does not exist within a slightly larger box that it is filling up more and more of. That is just so much baseless unsupported speculation...

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11-11-2014, 10:43 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 10:40 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(11-11-2014 10:27 AM)Free Wrote:  For example, logic tells me that if the universe is expanding, then it needs some where to go.

Why? What "logic" is that?

The logic of all known reality.

Please demonstrate to me just one single thing that moves but does not go anywhere.

I shall eagerly await your response.

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11-11-2014, 10:51 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 10:27 AM)Free Wrote:  For example, logic tells me that if the universe is expanding, then it needs some where to go. I find absolutely nothing wrong with this assertion, and telling me that the universe is not expanding into anything logically asserts that it cannot possibly go anywhere if it cannot expand somewhere.

Perhaps you can help me with this logic and tell me exactly what is wrong with it.

We've told you already what you are not actually backing up with a good reason... to say logic tells you it needs somewhere to go....Explain WHAT logic and why/how you get to this logical conclusion?

The problem we are getting is you're basing this "logic" on your common knowledge and understanding of how we evolved as people and in our language(battling over definitions of nothing/non-existence aren't important because they were created with the actual scientific concepts in mind, the concepts matter more than the labels)

To assert something is logically true in the micro/macro sense based on our common sense understanding has been shown to be invalid. From understanding how gravity bends space/time isn't how it logically is perceived to use but shows up via testing, and how particles in a quantum level are capable of moving and phasing around objects in ways that don't make sense validate how our simple process of judging via earth-human scale understandings of the universe don't accurately describe the actual way things are legitimately working.

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11-11-2014, 10:53 AM
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 10:51 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(11-11-2014 10:27 AM)Free Wrote:  For example, logic tells me that if the universe is expanding, then it needs some where to go. I find absolutely nothing wrong with this assertion, and telling me that the universe is not expanding into anything logically asserts that it cannot possibly go anywhere if it cannot expand somewhere.

Perhaps you can help me with this logic and tell me exactly what is wrong with it.

We've told you already what you are not actually backing up with a good reason... to say logic tells you it needs somewhere to go....Explain WHAT logic and why/how you get to this logical conclusion?

The problem we are getting is you're basing this "logic" on your common knowledge and understanding of how we evolved as people and in our language(battling over definitions of nothing/non-existence aren't important because they were created with the actual scientific concepts in mind, the concepts matter more than the labels)

To assert something is logically true in the micro/macro sense based on our common sense understanding has been shown to be invalid. From understanding how gravity bends space/time isn't how it logically is perceived to use but shows up via testing, and how particles in a quantum level are capable of moving and phasing around objects in ways that don't make sense validate how our simple process of judging via earth-human scale understandings of the universe don't accurately describe the actual way things are legitimately working.

See above.

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11-11-2014, 10:55 AM (This post was last modified: 11-11-2014 11:00 AM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Is there such thing as "Creation"?
(11-11-2014 10:53 AM)Free Wrote:  
(11-11-2014 10:51 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  We've told you already what you are not actually backing up with a good reason... to say logic tells you it needs somewhere to go....Explain WHAT logic and why/how you get to this logical conclusion?

The problem we are getting is you're basing this "logic" on your common knowledge and understanding of how we evolved as people and in our language(battling over definitions of nothing/non-existence aren't important because they were created with the actual scientific concepts in mind, the concepts matter more than the labels)

To assert something is logically true in the micro/macro sense based on our common sense understanding has been shown to be invalid. From understanding how gravity bends space/time isn't how it logically is perceived to use but shows up via testing, and how particles in a quantum level are capable of moving and phasing around objects in ways that don't make sense validate how our simple process of judging via earth-human scale understandings of the universe don't accurately describe the actual way things are legitimately working.

See above.

Like i'm saying.. your logic of "all known" reality is wrongly being attributed. There's not a consistent logic that we have found that describes all reality currently.. people try to find a way that works the macro/micro/ourscale into one unified vision. They each have different seeming realities.

On Micro and Macro scales, the logic of these realities doesn't consist in the same way we simply grasp how things work around us on this level.

And quantum particles in strange seeming scenarios actually answer you question. Since through studies they can appear to have not moved, yet moved in two places also at the same time. The understanding and situations of how they function is drastically different from anything we senses unassisted by advanced tools can examine.

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