Is this argument a Gish Gallop
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17-02-2015, 02:00 PM
RE: Is this argument a Gish Gallop
(17-02-2015 01:32 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  You mean.... because Adam screwed up... That all the eating of Zebra babies is because of that... ?

Ken Ham would have you believe that even aliens are bound by original sin.
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17-02-2015, 02:13 PM
RE: Is this argument a Gish Gallop
(17-02-2015 02:00 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Ken Ham would have you believe that even aliens are bound by original sin.

Yeah... but is that before or after he decided there were or weren't aliens?

Will make meeting such critters for the first time really interesting. Yes

Translated: "What do you mean you don't believe the great, multi-limbed Foxnob regurgitated reality and that you don't understand the first thing about sacrificing your bloon-tabs to redeem your sins?"
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19-02-2015, 06:31 AM
RE: Is this argument a Gish Gallop
Ken Ham believes that aliens are bound by Adam's original sin, but aren't saved by Jesus' redemption, thus proving they don't exist[1].

Quote:And I do believe there can’t be other intelligent beings in outer space because of the meaning of the gospel. You see, the Bible makes it clear that Adam’s sin affected the whole universe. This means that any aliens would also be affected by Adam’s sin, but because they are not Adam’s descendants, they can’t have salvation. One day, the whole universe will be judged by fire, and there will be a new heavens and earth. God’s Son stepped into history to be Jesus Christ, the “Godman,” to be our relative, and to be the perfect sacrifice for sin—the Savior of mankind.
[1] http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs/...-20-years/

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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19-02-2015, 02:48 PM
RE: Is this argument a Gish Gallop
(17-02-2015 01:32 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  
(17-02-2015 11:57 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  What this post is missing is Bible 101--that 'the whole creation is subjected to trauma, death and futility due to sin".

Shocking

Wha...!

You mean.... because Adam screwed up... That all the eating of Zebra babies is because of that... ?

Geez.... I really didn't think along those lines but, yeah, this god figure is a supreme dick.

I mean, really? The omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent deity creates everything and hence effectively makes Eve then Adam sin and then makes lions eat zebra babies?

Screw that guy!

Much cheers to all.

Peebothuhul. Let's follow your thoughts to their logical conclusion:

1. God is wrong because he causes animals to hurt for Adam's sin therefore

2. You are wrong when you cause animals to hurt therefore

3. Become a vegetarian or

4. Get some context and perspective...

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19-02-2015, 02:49 PM
RE: Is this argument a Gish Gallop
(17-02-2015 01:48 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(17-02-2015 11:55 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Really, you didn't guess at this simple truth? It's not ONLY a place of sorting. God could look and see the sin you'd do then put you in Hell, but it is just to allow someone to be punished for things they've done and not merely thought to do. The Bible talks about this concept, how sin feels good for "a time" before the consequences arrive. See a rich fat cat treating his employees with evil intent? Living high on the hog, dining at the finest tables, living for pleasure? His time will come.

Of course I didn't guess that because it makes no sense. There is no sin in heaven (or so I've been told). So, had your god put us there first, there would be no sinning, no need for sorting, no need for Earth, and no need for hell. Your god supposedly knows everything so he knew full well that by not putting us in heaven from the start, some of us would sin enough for him to dismiss those people to hell - a place of eternal, unimaginable torture that he also created. So the only "simple truth" I see is that, if real, your god wants some people to suffer unimaginable torture endlessly and you worship, praise, and proselytize for this tyrant. Dodgy

Oh, I see. You sin because you aren't in Heaven now while I sin because I'm willful, and sometimes degenerate. How convenient that must be for you.

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19-02-2015, 02:51 PM
RE: Is this argument a Gish Gallop
(19-02-2015 06:31 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Ken Ham believes that aliens are bound by Adam's original sin, but aren't saved by Jesus' redemption, thus proving they don't exist[1].

Quote:And I do believe there can’t be other intelligent beings in outer space because of the meaning of the gospel. You see, the Bible makes it clear that Adam’s sin affected the whole universe. This means that any aliens would also be affected by Adam’s sin, but because they are not Adam’s descendants, they can’t have salvation. One day, the whole universe will be judged by fire, and there will be a new heavens and earth. God’s Son stepped into history to be Jesus Christ, the “Godman,” to be our relative, and to be the perfect sacrifice for sin—the Savior of mankind.
[1] http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs/...-20-years/

In context, I understand Ham is rather saying that if sentient, human-like aliens exist with free will, they need the universal (literally, the universe-broad) redemption that Christ offers, and may even be watching us and thus arguing over the gospel. Well, why assault him for doing a little gedanken here?

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20-02-2015, 08:23 PM (This post was last modified: 20-02-2015 08:32 PM by Hafnof.)
RE: Is this argument a Gish Gallop
Q, I clarified a post by someone else in this thread by referring to the exact source material, summarising it, quoting it directly, and linking to the full context. Is this in your mind a form of "assault"? I think you are reading both my post and Ken's post through the lens of what you want to believe.

As for Ham's actual content he is very clear, no context about it, quoted directly in your own response: "I do believe there can't be other intelligent beings in outer space... the Bible makes it clear that Adam's sin affected the whole universe... they are not Adam's descendants, they can't have salvation."

Whatever you want Ham to believe I'll trust that he says what he means when he expresses himself clearly in his own words. I'm not judging the man. I'm quoting his opinion that previously in this thread was referred to without direct citation.

If we're going to context the point is that Ham believes that humans are a special creation. He believes that sin came to the whole universe through Adam's sin (not Eve's? oh well). He believes that Jesus as a descendant of Adam can save those descended from Adam (blood is important, puppies don't to go heaven). He believes the rest of the universe is disposable and exists to support God's "humanity" project. Would you really contest that he believes these things? If so I welcome citations.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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22-02-2015, 07:09 PM
RE: Is this argument a Gish Gallop
(19-02-2015 02:49 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Oh, I see. You sin because you aren't in Heaven now while I sin because I'm willful, and sometimes degenerate. How convenient that must be for you.

Please try to follow along. Rolleyes If there is "sin" at all, we both sin because it's possible and your god put us in a place where it's possible knowing full well that it's not only possible, but will happen; when he had another obvious choice.

Care to avoid my point again? Drinking Beverage

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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22-02-2015, 09:41 PM
RE: Is this argument a Gish Gallop
My counter argument for his line of thinking.

OK! Cool! so god put us here to suffer and overcome challenges, and if we make the wrong choices with absolutely no evidence of him existing, we get punished for all eternity!

Cool! So, lets have some fun and do that right here on earth ourselves!

Let's take all of our children, throw them into a large room filled with several black mamba snakes, a couple dozen scorpions, some black widows and exposed electrical outlets and 100 black widows.

Also, lets put a shit ton of stuff in the room that can be easily used as a weapon, with little to no food available to them, some bottles of bleach.

To make things even more fun, lets spend the week prior to that, telling each child that all the other kids have been saying REALLY bad things about them behind their backs to get them all really angry at each other.

Then, we lock them in this room for a week and if any of them makes a wrong choice. We will remove them from the room and beat them until they die.


So, we now have a bunch of kids pissed off at each other, in a room they have little chance for survival in, with over 100 things that can easily kill them, and if they make a wrong choice, they get punished for it for being ignorant and not knowing any better.

...sounds legit right?


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23-02-2015, 01:50 PM
RE: Is this argument a Gish Gallop
(20-02-2015 08:23 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  Q, I clarified a post by someone else in this thread by referring to the exact source material, summarising it, quoting it directly, and linking to the full context. Is this in your mind a form of "assault"? I think you are reading both my post and Ken's post through the lens of what you want to believe.

As for Ham's actual content he is very clear, no context about it, quoted directly in your own response: "I do believe there can't be other intelligent beings in outer space... the Bible makes it clear that Adam's sin affected the whole universe... they are not Adam's descendants, they can't have salvation."

Whatever you want Ham to believe I'll trust that he says what he means when he expresses himself clearly in his own words. I'm not judging the man. I'm quoting his opinion that previously in this thread was referred to without direct citation.

If we're going to context the point is that Ham believes that humans are a special creation. He believes that sin came to the whole universe through Adam's sin (not Eve's? oh well). He believes that Jesus as a descendant of Adam can save those descended from Adam (blood is important, puppies don't to go heaven). He believes the rest of the universe is disposable and exists to support God's "humanity" project. Would you really contest that he believes these things? If so I welcome citations.

That's fine. You can take my comments as my own take on salvation in the universe, if you like.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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