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Is this fair?
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25-10-2013, 05:37 AM
RE: Is this fair?
(24-10-2013 11:49 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(24-10-2013 02:00 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I've already stated my opinion in the thread. I would consider my position to be open-minded.

Do you mean this?

(24-10-2013 09:29 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  This seems rather 'fuzzy'. You heard? From where? Citation? Link?

Whatever. I don't think it's a big deal. If people want to discriminate who they will serve that should be their prerogative. Frankly, I don't want anyone serving me who doesn't want to anyway. That's how you get substandard service. If if the service would be unaffected I don't think it is the government's business.

I think it's a HUGE deal. It was kind of one of the major points of the Civil Rights movement here in the United States. Because 'separate but equal' was never equal.

Now remember that believers far outnumber non-believers. If you were to allow public businesses to legally discriminate against people, how long would it be before you started seeing 'Christian Only' signs pop up along with the 'White Only' signs back from the Jim Crow era southern United States? That is were your logic follows, and if applied equally, would allow to proliferate; and you would be far worse off for it.

Fuck that. The same law that would bite this gay photographer in the ass is also preventing fundamentalist business from denying services to people who don't share their beliefs. I'd rather have everyone be treated equally, rather than have to dance around a jigsaw puzzle of discriminatory business. So suck it up and provide the service equally, because their money is just as good, and he had better do his job just as good. He's free not to agree with them, to spend his earnings (or donate them) to a cause opposing the Christians who payed him for the gig. That is how you lawfully and ethically deal with that situation. You may not like it, but you suck it up, knowing full well that everyone else is expected to follow suite under penalty of law.

Yes, that is what I was referring to, and yes I stand by my statement. I'm okay with being excluded from businesses that are Christian only. I really don't want to give someone like that my business anyway. Discriminating hurts business. If they want to hurt themselves, let them. Also, the South you are talking about, doesn't really exist anymore. Ultimately though, I believe a person should be able to choose what they want, and don't want to do. In the same way that I want every idiot to have the ability to speak his mind about who he hates. I may not agree with the views of the person, but people should be allowed to be idiots if they want.

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25-10-2013, 01:01 PM
RE: Is this fair?
(25-10-2013 05:37 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Yes, that is what I was referring to, and yes I stand by my statement. I'm okay with being excluded from businesses that are Christian only. I really don't want to give someone like that my business anyway. Discriminating hurts business. If they want to hurt themselves, let them. Also, the South you are talking about, doesn't really exist anymore. Ultimately though, I believe a person should be able to choose what they want, and don't want to do. In the same way that I want every idiot to have the ability to speak his mind about who he hates. I may not agree with the views of the person, but people should be allowed to be idiots if they want.


If only we were all so lucky as to have a choice in the matter. If you allowed legal discrimination, how hard would have been for anyone looking remotely Muslim to make ends meet immediately post 9-11? Imagine how worse open atheists could be marginalized by their neighbors in the Bible Belt if businesses were legally allowed to refuse them services? Imagine not being able get gas to get yourself to work because all of the local gas stations have decided to stop serving non-Christians and there is nothing legally you can do about it? Imagine if you can't find a job or remain gainfully employed because of your honest lack of faith? If you allow business owners to legally discriminate in this way, these are all potential (and I'd argue likely) outcomes. I do NOT want to see us revert back to the level of pre-Civil Rights Movement legalized discrimination. As atheists we are a minority and the most hated, feared, and distrusted one in the United States. These laws do far more to protect us than limit us.

I'd ask that you try to broaden your horizons and look back into history, lest you repeat the costly mistakes of our forefathers.

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25-10-2013, 01:25 PM
RE: Is this fair?
(25-10-2013 01:01 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(25-10-2013 05:37 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Yes, that is what I was referring to, and yes I stand by my statement. I'm okay with being excluded from businesses that are Christian only. I really don't want to give someone like that my business anyway. Discriminating hurts business. If they want to hurt themselves, let them. Also, the South you are talking about, doesn't really exist anymore. Ultimately though, I believe a person should be able to choose what they want, and don't want to do. In the same way that I want every idiot to have the ability to speak his mind about who he hates. I may not agree with the views of the person, but people should be allowed to be idiots if they want.


If only we were all so lucky as to have a choice in the matter. If you allowed legal discrimination, how hard would have been for anyone looking remotely Muslim to make ends meet immediately post 9-11? Imagine how worse open atheists could be marginalized by their neighbors in the Bible Belt if businesses were legally allowed to refuse them services? Imagine not being able get gas to get yourself to work because all of the local gas stations have decided to stop serving non-Christians and there is nothing legally you can do about it? Imagine if you can't find a job or remain gainfully employed because of your honest lack of faith? If you allow business owners to legally discriminate in this way, these are all potential (and I'd argue likely) outcomes. I do NOT want to see us revert back to the level of pre-Civil Rights Movement legalized discrimination. As atheists we are a minority and the most hated, feared, and distrusted one in the United States. These laws do far more to protect us than limit us.

I'd ask that you try to broaden your horizons and look back into history, lest you repeat the costly mistakes of our forefathers.

And I say it is none of the governments business. If the local gas stations didn't want to serve me because I was an atheist that is their prerogative. I wouldn't want to patronize their business anyway. I will take my business elsewhere. That's why competition exists. I am not talking about legalized discrimination (as you put it). I'm talking about the government being silent on the issue. There is a big difference between the government legislating discrimination and the government not interfering with free trade. As far as I'm concerned the government has no business whatsoever telling me who I should do business with and for what reasons.

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25-10-2013, 01:31 PM
RE: Is this fair?
(25-10-2013 01:25 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(25-10-2013 01:01 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If only we were all so lucky as to have a choice in the matter. If you allowed legal discrimination, how hard would have been for anyone looking remotely Muslim to make ends meet immediately post 9-11? Imagine how worse open atheists could be marginalized by their neighbors in the Bible Belt if businesses were legally allowed to refuse them services? Imagine not being able get gas to get yourself to work because all of the local gas stations have decided to stop serving non-Christians and there is nothing legally you can do about it? Imagine if you can't find a job or remain gainfully employed because of your honest lack of faith? If you allow business owners to legally discriminate in this way, these are all potential (and I'd argue likely) outcomes. I do NOT want to see us revert back to the level of pre-Civil Rights Movement legalized discrimination. As atheists we are a minority and the most hated, feared, and distrusted one in the United States. These laws do far more to protect us than limit us.

I'd ask that you try to broaden your horizons and look back into history, lest you repeat the costly mistakes of our forefathers.

And I say it is none of the governments business. If the local gas stations didn't want to serve me because I was an atheist that is their prerogative. I wouldn't want to patronize their business anyway. I will take my business elsewhere. That's why competition exists. I am not talking about legalized discrimination (as you put it). I'm talking about the government being silent on the issue. There is a big difference between the government legislating discrimination and the government not interfering with free trade. As far as I'm concerned the government has no business whatsoever telling me who I should do business with and for what reasons.

No, you are talking about legalized discrimination. If it isn't illegal, then it is legal.

This is precisely what government is for - to protect the rights of people, especially minorities.
Go ahead and argue that your right to be a bigot outweighs the other guy's right to a functioning society. Go right ahead.

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25-10-2013, 01:50 PM
RE: Is this fair?
(25-10-2013 01:25 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  And I say it is none of the governments business. If the local gas stations didn't want to serve me because I was an atheist that is their prerogative. I wouldn't want to patronize their business anyway. I will take my business elsewhere. That's why competition exists. I am not talking about legalized discrimination (as you put it). I'm talking about the government being silent on the issue. There is a big difference between the government legislating discrimination and the government not interfering with free trade. As far as I'm concerned the government has no business whatsoever telling me who I should do business with and for what reasons.

Like I said, if only we were all so lucky as to have that choice.

What if there are no gas station in your state that are willing to serve non-Christians? What if a non-Christian can't maintain a gas station because they are boycotted by believers and don't get enough business from the non-believers? Do you want to know that that leads to? Ghettos. We've seen it time and time again throughout history and across various countries. When the majority is allowed to openly and legally discriminate against a minority, that minority gets pushed to the fringes and become outliers. Instead of being integrated into society at large, they are separated. They are forced into their own insular communities because they now have to support themselves, because the majority has turned their backs on them. This has been documented for centuries in Europe, and it leads to social and cultural stagnation. It leads to fear, distrust, and hatred; as we always tend to do to the unknown.

The best way to win people over is to be inclusive, not exclusive. The best way to get homosexuals and atheists accepted by the majority is to show that we are everywhere and can be anybody; that we are their co-workers, friends, and family members. We are not to be feared, because we need to take the higher path and reach out when others would shut themselves in. The best statement this hypothetical gay photographer could have made was by doing the job while being honest about his sexuality if asked, and showing these people that they have nothing to fear from him. Let them make the first move, throw the first stone or punch. That would keep the photographer 100% in the right, legally, morally, and ethically.

I truly fear that you appear to be too culturally isolated, and know too little of history, to truly appreciate the frightening depth and implication of your stance. You're turning your back on centuries of progress, advances and legal protections that guard your best interests far better than your laissez faire economics ever would.

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25-10-2013, 02:06 PM
RE: Is this fair?
(25-10-2013 01:25 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  And I say it is none of the governments business. If the local gas stations didn't want to serve me because I was an atheist that is their prerogative. I wouldn't want to patronize their business anyway. I will take my business elsewhere. That's why competition exists.

Yes. In an intro-to-economics world of perfect actors in a perfect market.

Real life rarely approaches such perfection Wink . Should a group be either small enough or disadvantaged enough there may be be no elsewhere. That is the justification for such laws. They are a direct response to historical conditions which existed within living memory in which exactly that was the case.

(25-10-2013 01:25 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I am not talking about legalized discrimination (as you put it). I'm talking about the government being silent on the issue. There is a big difference between the government legislating discrimination and the government not interfering with free trade. As far as I'm concerned the government has no business whatsoever telling me who I should do business with and for what reasons.

Sure, but the very existence of a market relies on government regulation and enforcement anyway.

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25-10-2013, 02:15 PM
RE: Is this fair?
(25-10-2013 01:31 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-10-2013 01:25 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  And I say it is none of the governments business. If the local gas stations didn't want to serve me because I was an atheist that is their prerogative. I wouldn't want to patronize their business anyway. I will take my business elsewhere. That's why competition exists. I am not talking about legalized discrimination (as you put it). I'm talking about the government being silent on the issue. There is a big difference between the government legislating discrimination and the government not interfering with free trade. As far as I'm concerned the government has no business whatsoever telling me who I should do business with and for what reasons.

No, you are talking about legalized discrimination. If it isn't illegal, then it is legal.

This is precisely what government is for - to protect the rights of people, especially minorities.
Go ahead and argue that your right to be a bigot outweighs the other guy's right to a functioning society. Go right ahead.

The government wouldn't be legalizing discrimination, it would be legalizing the right to a person to discriminate. I don't know how you cannot understand the difference. Also your "bigot arguement"....really? Bravo on that front. The options are not allow discrimination or have a functioning society. Indeed society functions every day despite discrimination and would do so regardless of what laws were repealed. If these laws were repealed society would not tear itself apart.

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25-10-2013, 02:19 PM
RE: Is this fair?
(25-10-2013 01:50 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(25-10-2013 01:25 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  And I say it is none of the governments business. If the local gas stations didn't want to serve me because I was an atheist that is their prerogative. I wouldn't want to patronize their business anyway. I will take my business elsewhere. That's why competition exists. I am not talking about legalized discrimination (as you put it). I'm talking about the government being silent on the issue. There is a big difference between the government legislating discrimination and the government not interfering with free trade. As far as I'm concerned the government has no business whatsoever telling me who I should do business with and for what reasons.

Like I said, if only we were all so lucky as to have that choice.

What if there are no gas station in your state that are willing to serve non-Christians? What if a non-Christian can't maintain a gas station because they are boycotted by believers and don't get enough business from the non-believers? Do you want to know that that leads to? Ghettos. We've seen it time and time again throughout history and across various countries. When the majority is allowed to openly and legally discriminate against a minority, that minority gets pushed to the fringes and become outliers. Instead of being integrated into society at large, they are separated. They are forced into their own insular communities because they now have to support themselves, because the majority has turned their backs on them. This has been documented for centuries in Europe, and it leads to social and cultural stagnation. It leads to fear, distrust, and hatred; as we always tend to do to the unknown.

The best way to win people over is to be inclusive, not exclusive. The best way to get homosexuals and atheists accepted by the majority is to show that we are everywhere and can be anybody; that we are their co-workers, friends, and family members. We are not to be feared, because we need to take the higher path and reach out when others would shut themselves in. The best statement this hypothetical gay photographer could have made was by doing the job while being honest about his sexuality if asked, and showing these people that they have nothing to fear from him. Let them make the first move, throw the first stone or punch. That would keep the photographer 100% in the right, legally, morally, and ethically.

I truly fear that you appear to be too culturally isolated, and know too little of history, to truly appreciate the frightening depth and implication of your stance. You're turning your back on centuries of progress, advances and legal protections that guard your best interests far better than your laissez faire economics ever would.

That's quite a leap. I disagree with you therefor I have been completely isolated, never experienced other cultures or left my bubble and am ignorant of history. I'm not even going to bother to respond to your points because it is apparent that nothing I could possibly say will be given any serious consideration by you.

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25-10-2013, 02:24 PM
RE: Is this fair?
(25-10-2013 02:15 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(25-10-2013 01:31 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, you are talking about legalized discrimination. If it isn't illegal, then it is legal.

This is precisely what government is for - to protect the rights of people, especially minorities.
Go ahead and argue that your right to be a bigot outweighs the other guy's right to a functioning society. Go right ahead.

The government wouldn't be legalizing discrimination, it would be legalizing the right to a person to discriminate. I don't know how you cannot understand the difference. Also your "bigot arguement"....really? Bravo on that front. The options are not allow discrimination or have a functioning society. Indeed society functions every day despite discrimination and would do so regardless of what laws were repealed. If these laws were repealed society would not tear itself apart.

Society (in some places) would revert to Jim Crow style, separate-but-equal(?), ghetto-ized behaviors. You call that functioning? Maybe for some, but not for all.

First they bar the gays, then the Latinos, then the Muslims, then ... Slippery slope, DL, slippery slope.

You are advocating a dumbed-down libertarianism where people can allegedly just move to some other place where they are not discriminated against.
They may not have the means, or there may not be another place.

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25-10-2013, 02:26 PM
RE: Is this fair?
(25-10-2013 02:06 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(25-10-2013 01:25 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  And I say it is none of the governments business. If the local gas stations didn't want to serve me because I was an atheist that is their prerogative. I wouldn't want to patronize their business anyway. I will take my business elsewhere. That's why competition exists.

Yes. In an intro-to-economics world of perfect actors in a perfect market.

Real life rarely approaches such perfection Wink . Should a group be either small enough or disadvantaged enough there may be be no elsewhere. That is the justification for such laws. They are a direct response to historical conditions which existed within living memory in which exactly that was the case.

(25-10-2013 01:25 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I am not talking about legalized discrimination (as you put it). I'm talking about the government being silent on the issue. There is a big difference between the government legislating discrimination and the government not interfering with free trade. As far as I'm concerned the government has no business whatsoever telling me who I should do business with and for what reasons.

Sure, but the very existence of a market relies on government regulation and enforcement anyway.

Yes, there are plenty of 'what-if' scenarios we could go through. In certain scenarios it would necessitate that I leave my current residence and find somewhere more accepting and tolerant. I am willing to do so in such an eventuality, frankly if that were the case I wouldn't want to live in this place anyhow.

Let's look at this a but more realistically, though. Even though I live in one of the most religiously and socially conservative areas of America, this would not happen. As a matter of fact, I seriously doubt there would be any businesses that would refuse service to anyone based on race, religion, sex or sexuality. If there were a couple of business that decided to do so they would suffer not only potential benefits from the people who are being denied service, but also from the people who find that kind of bigotry unacceptable, though they may not belong to the group being discriminated against.

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