Is this shit even real?
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10-01-2016, 04:39 PM
RE: Is this shit even real?
(10-01-2016 01:24 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I only really need to take a B12 and iodine supplement.

Just curious, where do the B12 supplements come from? Have you researched whether not they extract it from a source that is meat based? Consider

Can you get B12 from a non-meat based source?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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10-01-2016, 05:35 PM (This post was last modified: 10-01-2016 05:39 PM by jennybee.)
RE: Is this shit even real?
(10-01-2016 04:39 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(10-01-2016 01:24 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I only really need to take a B12 and iodine supplement.

Just curious, where do the B12 supplements come from? Have you researched whether not they extract it from a source that is meat based? Consider

Can you get B12 from a non-meat based source?

I have and it's vegan (the one I take anyway). Many foods are fortified with B12 (like cereal and non-dairy milks). I am not a big cereal person and I don't drink a ton of non-dairy milks, so I choose to supplement with B12.

I by no means consider myself a martyr. I do the best I can to avoid eating animals because I am a huge animal lover, but also because I find the texture of steak, chicken, fish etc. hugely unappealing.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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10-01-2016, 05:43 PM
RE: Is this shit even real?
(10-01-2016 02:25 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  
(10-01-2016 01:04 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  So are humans.

Humans are omnivores and have the choice to eat whatever they want to.

As someone said above. Tongue

Also if you're going to claim that we should follow nature in the case of our diet, why not say we need to get rid of the concept of civilization entirely because it's against nature?

Yeah i agree we have a choice in what we eat. If some one does not eat plants like the inuits the can be fine. We live in a time were we can choose, so I don't disagree with it.

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10-01-2016, 05:46 PM
RE: Is this shit even real?
(10-01-2016 03:31 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  
(10-01-2016 02:55 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Citation required.

I need a citation to show that humans are omnivores? I don't think I do.

You don't think you do what? Consider

Just look at our teeth and digestive systems. Or look here. Or here.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-01-2016, 06:00 PM
RE: Is this shit even real?
(10-01-2016 05:35 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(10-01-2016 04:39 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Just curious, where do the B12 supplements come from? Have you researched whether not they extract it from a source that is meat based? Consider

Can you get B12 from a non-meat based source?

I have and it's vegan (the one I take anyway). Many foods are fortified with B12 (like cereal and non-dairy milks). I am not a big cereal person and I don't drink a ton of non-dairy milks, so I choose to supplement with B12.

I by no means consider myself a martyr. I do the best I can to avoid eating animals because I am a huge animal lover, but also because I find the texture of steak, chicken, fish etc. hugely unappealing.

Cool. I didn't think about milk, which could be a source without the need for an animal to die.

I still think that you're crazy to find steak unappealing though. Tongue

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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10-01-2016, 06:34 PM
RE: Is this shit even real?
(10-01-2016 06:00 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(10-01-2016 05:35 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I have and it's vegan (the one I take anyway). Many foods are fortified with B12 (like cereal and non-dairy milks). I am not a big cereal person and I don't drink a ton of non-dairy milks, so I choose to supplement with B12.

I by no means consider myself a martyr. I do the best I can to avoid eating animals because I am a huge animal lover, but also because I find the texture of steak, chicken, fish etc. hugely unappealing.

Cool. I didn't think about milk, which could be a source without the need for an animal to die.

I still think that you're crazy to find steak unappealing though. Tongue

Yeah, it was easy for me to go vegan because I was a vegetarian for years before that. I just never liked meat, even as a kid. But like I say, I know it's not for everyone. I've never dated a vegan, only meat eaters, and they're usually happy that there is more steak for them and I'm happy with the extra baked potato and sides. So it works out Big Grin

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10-01-2016, 08:15 PM (This post was last modified: 10-01-2016 08:22 PM by GenesisNemesis.)
RE: Is this shit even real?
(10-01-2016 05:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-01-2016 03:31 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  I need a citation to show that humans are omnivores? I don't think I do.

You don't think you do what? Consider

Just look at our teeth and digestive systems. Or look here. Or here.

The point is, who gives a fuck if nature says we "should" eat one way or another? We don't have to follow what nature says. We have choices. Moreover, I think you might've misinterpreted me.

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10-01-2016, 09:10 PM (This post was last modified: 10-01-2016 09:37 PM by yakherder.)
RE: Is this shit even real?
A few hours late to the discussion, but a few random things to add, some of which has already been touched on.

• B12 - The reason vegans often supplement with this, and the reason doing so is not necessarily considered proof that a vegan diet is unnatural (by whatever arbitrary standard one chooses to define unnatural), is because it is modern hygiene that removed otherwise natural sources of B12 from our diets. It would otherwise be found in places other than meat. B12 is synthesized in the intestines of almost every animal. The problem is that, with a few exceptions (such as cows, for example), it is synthesized after the point in the digestive process in which it can be absorbed. In a "natural" environment, the shit of mammals is loaded with B12 and spread all over the forest floor to be picked up by everything coming out of the ground or falling onto it. In this context, it's nearly impossible to eat something without consuming trace amounts of B12 with every bite. Relatively recent cultural changes in which it became the norm to wash and sanitize the fuck out of everything we put into our mouths messed up this part of the cycle. So yeah, animal products happen to have B12, but this in and of itself does not constitute as proof that we were "meant" to eat meat.

• That said, as something of a forager myself, I'd like to reiterate that natural is a bullshit term that is nearly impossible to define. The vast majority of the stuff you pick up in the store, whether out of the produce section or off the shelf, is a human creation. You're not gonna find red delicious apples , for example, in a truly wild environment. You'll find these tiny sour little things that vaguely resemble what we'd refer to as crab apples. Their larger, juicer, sweeter cousins were created through selective breeding by humans who wanted something larger, juicer, and sweeter than nature felt compelled to provide them with. It is thus higher in sugars and fructose than just about anything you'd forage out in the wilderness, aside from perhaps honey. Everything we grow was intentionally altered to make it more practical in an agriculture based society.

So the concept that we should eat a diet based on what we consider to be natural is flawed, and the definition of natural very much arbitrary. Granted, many of the things we do call natural happen to be a healthier choice than the things we choose to call unnatural, but not always. A more reliable standard is the good old fashioned scientific process. A handful of blueberries is a healthy choice. A handful of sour patch kids is not. We know the reason for this, and it is not simply because the blueberries happened to have been picked.

On the flip side, as another example, whey protein has been shown to be more efficiently absorbed than its closest so called natural competition, milk (I say so called because cows are typically artificially inseminated on a regular basis to keep them producing cow baby food for humans to consume). There are reasons why one might not want to overdo whey protein, but as a supplement it is easily arguable that it is a healthy addition to a well balanced diet. Natural or not, this can be demonstrated through applying the scientific process of analysis as we observe its effects on those who choose to consume it. I therefore choose to consume it, and milk, and eggs, and all sorts of other things I'd have trouble describing as natural if I really wanted to be picky with my definition simply because, based on my understanding of the science of nutrition, and my fitness and nutritional objectives, I believe it to be a rational choice. I don't tend to eat much sweets. I don't give a shit that they aren't natural, I give a shit that consuming them moves me away from my objectives.

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10-01-2016, 09:59 PM
RE: Is this shit even real?
(10-01-2016 09:10 PM)yakherder Wrote:  A few hours late to the discussion, but a few random things to add, some of which has already been touched on.

• B12 - The reason vegans often supplement with this, and the reason doing so is not necessarily considered proof that a vegan diet is unnatural (by whatever arbitrary standard one chooses to define unnatural), is because it is modern hygiene that removed otherwise natural sources of B12 from our diets. It would otherwise be found in places other than meat. B12 is synthesized in the intestines of almost every animal. The problem is that, with a few exceptions (such as cows, for example), it is synthesized after the point in the digestive process in which it can be absorbed. In a "natural" environment, the shit of mammals is loaded with B12 and spread all over the forest floor to be picked up by everything coming out of the ground or falling onto it. In this context, it's nearly impossible to eat something without consuming trace amounts of B12 with every bite. Relatively recent cultural changes in which it became the norm to wash and sanitize the fuck out of everything we put into our mouths messed up this part of the cycle. So yeah, animal products happen to have B12, but this in and of itself does not constitute as proof that we were "meant" to eat meat.

• That said, as something of a forager myself, I'd like to reiterate that natural is a bullshit term that is nearly impossible to define. The vast majority of the stuff you pick up in the store, whether out of the produce section or off the shelf, is a human creation. You're not gonna find red delicious apples , for example, in a truly wild environment. You'll find these tiny sour little things that vaguely resemble what we'd refer to as crab apples. Their larger, juicer, sweeter cousins were created through selective breeding by humans who wanted something larger, juicer, and sweeter than nature felt compelled to provide them with. It is thus higher in sugars and fructose than just about anything you'd forage out in the wilderness, aside from perhaps honey. Everything we grow was intentionally altered to make it more practical in an agriculture based society.

So the concept that we should eat a diet based on what we consider to be natural is flawed, and the definition of natural very much arbitrary. Granted, many of the things we do call natural happen to be a healthier choice than the things we choose to call unnatural, but not always. A more reliable standard is the good old fashioned scientific process. A handful of blueberries is a healthy choice. A handful of sour patch kids is not. We know the reason for this, and it is not simply because the blueberries happened to have been picked.

On the flip side, as another example, whey protein has been shown to be more efficiently absorbed than its closest so called natural competition, milk (I say so called because cows are typically artificially inseminated on a regular basis to keep them producing cow baby food for humans to consume). There are reasons why one might not want to overdo whey protein, but as a supplement it is easily arguable that it is a healthy addition to a well balanced diet. Natural or not, this can be demonstrated through applying the scientific process of analysis as we observe its effects on those who choose to consume it. I therefore choose to consume it, and milk, and eggs, and all sorts of other things I'd have trouble describing as natural if I really wanted to be picky with my definition simply because, based on my understanding of the science of nutrition, and my fitness and nutritional objectives, I believe it to be a rational choice. I don't tend to eat much sweets. I don't give a shit that they aren't natural, I give a shit that consuming them moves me away from my objectives.

I would say that everything we do is natural. What people don't realize is that nature changes, and what is natural changes. The argument for natural or not natural is something for the wooish.

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10-01-2016, 10:02 PM
RE: Is this shit even real?
(10-01-2016 09:59 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(10-01-2016 09:10 PM)yakherder Wrote:  A few hours late to the discussion, but a few random things to add, some of which has already been touched on.

• B12 - The reason vegans often supplement with this, and the reason doing so is not necessarily considered proof that a vegan diet is unnatural (by whatever arbitrary standard one chooses to define unnatural), is because it is modern hygiene that removed otherwise natural sources of B12 from our diets. It would otherwise be found in places other than meat. B12 is synthesized in the intestines of almost every animal. The problem is that, with a few exceptions (such as cows, for example), it is synthesized after the point in the digestive process in which it can be absorbed. In a "natural" environment, the shit of mammals is loaded with B12 and spread all over the forest floor to be picked up by everything coming out of the ground or falling onto it. In this context, it's nearly impossible to eat something without consuming trace amounts of B12 with every bite. Relatively recent cultural changes in which it became the norm to wash and sanitize the fuck out of everything we put into our mouths messed up this part of the cycle. So yeah, animal products happen to have B12, but this in and of itself does not constitute as proof that we were "meant" to eat meat.

• That said, as something of a forager myself, I'd like to reiterate that natural is a bullshit term that is nearly impossible to define. The vast majority of the stuff you pick up in the store, whether out of the produce section or off the shelf, is a human creation. You're not gonna find red delicious apples , for example, in a truly wild environment. You'll find these tiny sour little things that vaguely resemble what we'd refer to as crab apples. Their larger, juicer, sweeter cousins were created through selective breeding by humans who wanted something larger, juicer, and sweeter than nature felt compelled to provide them with. It is thus higher in sugars and fructose than just about anything you'd forage out in the wilderness, aside from perhaps honey. Everything we grow was intentionally altered to make it more practical in an agriculture based society.

So the concept that we should eat a diet based on what we consider to be natural is flawed, and the definition of natural very much arbitrary. Granted, many of the things we do call natural happen to be a healthier choice than the things we choose to call unnatural, but not always. A more reliable standard is the good old fashioned scientific process. A handful of blueberries is a healthy choice. A handful of sour patch kids is not. We know the reason for this, and it is not simply because the blueberries happened to have been picked.

On the flip side, as another example, whey protein has been shown to be more efficiently absorbed than its closest so called natural competition, milk (I say so called because cows are typically artificially inseminated on a regular basis to keep them producing cow baby food for humans to consume). There are reasons why one might not want to overdo whey protein, but as a supplement it is easily arguable that it is a healthy addition to a well balanced diet. Natural or not, this can be demonstrated through applying the scientific process of analysis as we observe its effects on those who choose to consume it. I therefore choose to consume it, and milk, and eggs, and all sorts of other things I'd have trouble describing as natural if I really wanted to be picky with my definition simply because, based on my understanding of the science of nutrition, and my fitness and nutritional objectives, I believe it to be a rational choice. I don't tend to eat much sweets. I don't give a shit that they aren't natural, I give a shit that consuming them moves me away from my objectives.

I would say that everything we do is natural. What people don't realize is that nature changes, and what is natural changes. The argument for natural or not natural is something for the wooish.

I could either completely agree or completely disagree and argue either stance depending on my own definition of natural Smile

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