Is this the hill to die on?
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11-10-2015, 06:48 AM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2015 07:32 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Is this the hill to die on?
(10-10-2015 08:24 PM)jayc Wrote:  Wife's a Christian I'm was too but now I'm an atheist as of earlier this year. We have 2 girls. She believes I shouldn't share my atheist view, or any topic that challenges Christian views such as evolution because it's unfair I've done a 180. She also argues it would be confusing for the kids.

I'm feeling very strongly that I should be able to share my views. Granted in a respectful and age appropriate approach and likely within the context of answering a question or problem my kids might have and where God comes up. I don't necessarily think I have to run in guns blazing but I don't think I should have to be silent either.

Is there any reasonable view that would support that I shouldn't share my view because my kinds are already raised Christian and I'm the one whose changes. I think I have a reasoned view but I'm checking one more time.


I did try asking her to try seeing it from a flipped view. If we were both atheist and she became a Christian would she think it reasonable that she shouldn't share her view. She won't even entertain this question and thinks I'm trying to push her into my view. I think this is telling. I know most Christians would feel obligated to share... Hence the resistance.

In pretty tough waters. I think our marriage hangs on this. I don't think I can bend on this. I think this is a fundamental thing. There must be mutual respect for right of each to have our views if not the view itself.

Ps kids only really have cultural Christian view nothing hard core. No church attendance.
Jay

What would be unfair, is to lie to them about Evolution. It's a fact. Every part of modern science uses it, assumes it, and works with it. It's central knowledge to
core human knowledge. You can work out "but mum's the word" about her other delusions, .... not about Evolution. They NEED it to survive in getting their educations. It's simply not optional. Every major university in the world assumes is and teaches around it.

If she thinks Evolution "challenges Christianity" then she also doesn't know anything about that, either. (See "Finding Darwin's God" by Brown University's Kenneth Miller ... I don't agree with him, but it's a last ditch attempt to compromise the two. There are many Christian scientists who accept that Evolution is the best explanation we have now. If she wants to give them any hope of not jettisoning the whole religion business the minute they get exposed to science, she better lay the foundation now for how they might be compatible, instead of putting her head in the sand.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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11-10-2015, 07:35 AM
RE: Is this the hill to die on?
(11-10-2015 06:48 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(10-10-2015 08:24 PM)jayc Wrote:  Wife's a Christian I'm was too but now I'm an atheist as of earlier this year. We have 2 girls. She believes I shouldn't share my atheist view, or any topic that challenges Christian views such as evolution because it's unfair I've done a 180. She also argues it would be confusing for the kids.

I'm feeling very strongly that I should be able to share my views. Granted in a respectful and age appropriate approach and likely within the context of answering a question or problem my kids might have and where God comes up. I don't necessarily think I have to run in guns blazing but I don't think I should have to be silent either.

Is there any reasonable view that would support that I shouldn't share my view because my kinds are already raised Christian and I'm the one whose changes. I think I have a reasoned view but I'm checking one more time.


I did try asking her to try seeing it from a flipped view. If we were both atheist and she became a Christian would she think it reasonable that she shouldn't share her view. She won't even entertain this question and thinks I'm trying to push her into my view. I think this is telling. I know most Christians would feel obligated to share... Hence the resistance.

In pretty tough waters. I think our marriage hangs on this. I don't think I can bend on this. I think this is a fundamental thing. There must be mutual respect for right of each to have our views if not the view itself.

Ps kids only really have cultural Christian view nothing hard core. No church attendance.
Jay

What would be unfair, is to lie to them about Evolution. It's a fact. Every part of modern science uses it, assumes it, and works with it. It's central knowledge to
core human knowledge. You can work out "but mum's the word" about her other delusions, .... not about Evolution. They NEED it to survive in getting their educations. It's simply not optional. Every major university in the world assumes is and teaches around it.

That's the thing - the school teaches it and it will come up at a later time (dunno how old the kids are). After deconverting only this year, the wife hasn't had the time to adjust, but the reaction leaves a lot to hope for - at least there doesn't seem to have been the handwringing over the loss of his soul. So, there is an opening...

It all depends on what the remainder of the relationship is like - there tend to be only few people who make good life partners for an individual.

Nobody needs to lie about anything. Normally it would never come up until it does in school. Of course if the wife tells the children it's not valid, one would have to say something. But, why rush into it? The issue is whether the parents can work through this and be real life partners. And we don't know anything about this relationship. We don't know whether the wife will adjust. She may come around a couple of years out.

Of course if the kids are already teens, a conversation may be in order. But if they are little - critical thinking is the most important thing to teach. The rest falls into place.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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11-10-2015, 11:35 AM
RE: Is this the hill to die on?
(11-10-2015 07:35 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(11-10-2015 06:48 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  What would be unfair, is to lie to them about Evolution. It's a fact. Every part of modern science uses it, assumes it, and works with it. It's central knowledge to
core human knowledge. You can work out "but mum's the word" about her other delusions, .... not about Evolution. They NEED it to survive in getting their educations. It's simply not optional. Every major university in the world assumes is and teaches around it.

That's the thing - the school teaches it and it will come up at a later time (dunno how old the kids are). After deconverting only this year, the wife hasn't had the time to adjust, but the reaction leaves a lot to hope for - at least there doesn't seem to have been the handwringing over the loss of his soul. So, there is an opening...

It all depends on what the remainder of the relationship is like - there tend to be only few people who make good life partners for an individual.

Nobody needs to lie about anything. Normally it would never come up until it does in school. Of course if the wife tells the children it's not valid, one would have to say something. But, why rush into it? The issue is whether the parents can work through this and be real life partners. And we don't know anything about this relationship. We don't know whether the wife will adjust. She may come around a couple of years out.

Of course if the kids are already teens, a conversation may be in order. But if they are little - critical thinking is the most important thing to teach. The rest falls into place.

I totally agree it's nothing to break up a relationship over. My great granny was a very devout strict Catholic, and my gramps was a "nothing" (I really wish he were still around so I could ask him what he thought, or that he had written about it somewhere). They were a perfect "match", and somehow he managed to tune out her religion.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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11-10-2015, 11:58 AM
RE: Is this the hill to die on?
I'm a fan of the Organic Chemist and Bucky Ball. You dan't break up a relationship over this unless one party is a religious fanatic. I can't imagine that in this day and age your children will grow up to be Christians and they won't have to be prodded toward atheism by either parent.
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11-10-2015, 12:50 PM
RE: Is this the hill to die on?
(11-10-2015 11:35 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(11-10-2015 07:35 AM)Dom Wrote:  That's the thing - the school teaches it and it will come up at a later time (dunno how old the kids are). After deconverting only this year, the wife hasn't had the time to adjust, but the reaction leaves a lot to hope for - at least there doesn't seem to have been the handwringing over the loss of his soul. So, there is an opening...

It all depends on what the remainder of the relationship is like - there tend to be only few people who make good life partners for an individual.

Nobody needs to lie about anything. Normally it would never come up until it does in school. Of course if the wife tells the children it's not valid, one would have to say something. But, why rush into it? The issue is whether the parents can work through this and be real life partners. And we don't know anything about this relationship. We don't know whether the wife will adjust. She may come around a couple of years out.

Of course if the kids are already teens, a conversation may be in order. But if they are little - critical thinking is the most important thing to teach. The rest falls into place.

I totally agree it's nothing to break up a relationship over. My great granny was a very devout strict Catholic, and my gramps was a "nothing" (I really wish he were still around so I could ask him what he thought, or that he had written about it somewhere). They were a perfect "match", and somehow he managed to tune out her religion.

My dad was an atheist and mom a catholic from a devout family. She changed her mind and deconverted some years into their marriage.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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14-10-2015, 06:46 AM
RE: Is this the hill to die on?
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I've been reading the posts as they've come in. I did listen to that podcast Seth did, http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/podcas...ationships - Mar 27, 2011. I've been listening to the podcasts starting at the oldest and going forward and currently at about May 2012.

Kids are 7 and 9.

As some have mentioned this isn't the thing to end a relationship on and there other factors around how we resolve conflict in general. We are still trying to work it out for the sake of the kids, but last week it was pretty close to the edge because in this case I am unable or unwilling (depending how you look at it) to back down.

Somewhat interesting, I just recently told my parents (wife forced my hand), both active and strong UPC Pentecostal (my background born and raised and survived 30+ years of it, so while my kids are cultural christians, I am not! I know all that it means) and they handled it surprisingly well. I know that they can't be happy with this and I'm sure it causes them much mental stress, but they have shielded me from their response. We discussed it a bit in a friendly manner avoiding getting crazy about it and agreed we came to different conclusions. A few days later we spent a nice day over thanksgiving just getting along as family should. This is amazing to me as I was figuring at the very least this would cause distance. They were able to accept that two parents (one believing, one not) should be able to teach one's kids - almost a given from their viewpoint. Given how extreme UPC Pentecostal is, I was delightfully surprised at how my parents handled this. Again no doubt this is very challenging to them personally, but they were able to keep that separate. I contrast that to how a cultural christian can have such a rigid problem - parental relationship vs spousal relationship is a factor but still. So for anyone else having to deal with family, sometimes family can surprise you in a positive way when dealing with belief vs unbelief - though it is still heart breaking to hear all the cases where its very negative.

I mentioned in a different post what set things in motion was that I got caught off guard when my youngest asked me where people come from and as I have in recent history been studying evolution it just kind of slipped out and and my wife was not pleased... Honestly I think evolution, and specifically that we share a common ancestor with Apes, is more jarring to my wife despite the fact this is mainstream science. But she's completely closed off to even talking about it. Oddly she loves Planet of the Apes. *FacePalm* *CRY*. Likewise there's a complete refusal to listen to my views (not accept I don't need that, just listen to understand why I think how I do) despite stating how could I go this opposite to how I was raised - that demands a sharing of my views to explain how I changed from born and raised UPC to unbeliever but as soon as I do, refusal to listen and back to how could you go from raised UPC to unbeliever.... Round and round we go. Frustrating.

Thanks for the advise about just living for a while longer as a quiet atheist to give my wife time to adjust - if nothing else it gives every opportunity for things to succeed and if they still don't I can at least take comfort in that I tried every reasonable avenue.

~Jay
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14-10-2015, 06:50 AM
RE: Is this the hill to die on?
My SO who I've lived with for a few years was brought up in a Catholic home - and she'd gone to several different churches after moving to this area.

Since she's lived with me - she has never brought up the subject. Nor has she gone to any church.

Of course in comparison - I'm rabidly devout - as an atheist.

I dunno if she's changed her mind or not -- but we're comfortable with it...

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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14-10-2015, 08:43 AM
RE: Is this the hill to die on?
My maternal grandfather was an atheist, and for decades, he was the only atheist I ever knew of. My grandmother was lutheran and my mom was raised lutheran. My grandfather was quite a vocal atheist and would call religion bullshit out loud and in spite of this my mom remained religious ... until about a few years ago when one day in church she had it and told my dad religion was all about controlling people. She never went back and shortly after that I saw God is not Great, and The End of Faith on her bookshelf. I have been an atheist since college (for 30 years). So I am a third generation atheist, but we all came into it independently of each other. I think this is something your wife and most theists don't understand, simply knowing an atheist or being exposed to atheism is not going to result in deconversion because it is a personal journey and not one easily undertaken.

I echo the similar comments that for your relationship to flourish, you both need to be equals. Your positions and opinions can't be dismissed.
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