Is this the strangest verse in the Bible?
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07-01-2012, 02:15 PM
Is this the strangest verse in the Bible?
In Ezekiel 20, YHWH is speaking to Ezekiel about his dealings with the Israelites. And he says:

20:25 Moreover, I gave them laws that were not good and rules by which they could not live.

Huh? God is admitting he gave his people laws that were not good? Rules he knew they could not live by? What the hell is that all about?

Here's the context--not that it helps:

Ezekiel 20:23-26
However, I swore to them in the wilderness that I would scatter them among the nations and disperse them through the lands, because they did not obey My rules, but rejected My laws, profaned My sabbaths, and looked with longing to the fetishes of their fathers. Moreover, I gave them laws that were not good and rules by which they could not live. When they set aside every first issue of the womb, I defiled them by their very gifts--that I might render them desolate, that they might know that I am the Lord.

So God deliberately gave his people rotten laws as some kind of punishment? Interesting. I wonder which OT statutes fall into that category.

I'm sure the apologists have some acrobatics up their sleeves to explain away the weirdness of this verse. To an objective reader, though, it's just another example--albeit a particularly striking one--of YHWH being a dick.

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07-01-2012, 02:24 PM
RE: Is this the strangest verse in the Bible?
Well, he is the self proclaimed creator of evil.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

—Isaiah 45:7

- fracken prick of a god - yes theists, you worship a prick, an evil prick who says outright that he is an evil prick - ok I'm paraphrasing, but I'm pretty sure that's what he meant.

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07-01-2012, 04:36 PM
RE: Is this the strangest verse in the Bible?
(07-01-2012 02:15 PM)cufflink Wrote:  In Ezekiel 20, YHWH is speaking to Ezekiel about his dealings with the Israelites. And he says:

20:25 Moreover, I gave them laws that were not good and rules by which they could not live.

Huh? God is admitting he gave his people laws that were not good? Rules he knew they could not live by? What the hell is that all about?

Here's the context--not that it helps:

Ezekiel 20:23-26
However, I swore to them in the wilderness that I would scatter them among the nations and disperse them through the lands, because they did not obey My rules, but rejected My laws, profaned My sabbaths, and looked with longing to the fetishes of their fathers. Moreover, I gave them laws that were not good and rules by which they could not live. When they set aside every first issue of the womb, I defiled them by their very gifts--that I might render them desolate, that they might know that I am the Lord.

So God deliberately gave his people rotten laws as some kind of punishment? Interesting. I wonder which OT statutes fall into that category.

I'm sure the apologists have some acrobatics up their sleeves to explain away the weirdness of this verse. To an objective reader, though, it's just another example--albeit a particularly striking one--of YHWH being a dick.

No apolpgetics. God created evil. God created humans to sin. Since He is omniscient, He is quite aware of the fallen nature of man and our inability to not sin. He created us that way.

It was according to His plan, so that Christ would have purpose. This is also a reason why I can't understand any theist who subscribes to the Arminian theology. If you have read the Bible, it's blatantly obvious that humans have no control over what God does.

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07-01-2012, 04:39 PM
RE: Is this the strangest verse in the Bible?
(07-01-2012 04:36 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  No apolpgetics. God created evil. God created humans to sin. Since He is omniscient, He is quite aware of the fallen nature of man and our inability to not sin. He created us that way.

It was according to His plan, so that Christ would have purpose. This is also a reason why I can't understand any theist who subscribes to the Arminian theology. If you have read the Bible, it's blatantly obvious that humans have no control over what God does.

Really, KC, step back and look at that. It is just the silliest circular argument.

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07-01-2012, 05:40 PM (This post was last modified: 07-01-2012 05:44 PM by Peterkin.)
RE: Is this the strangest verse in the Bible?
It probably wasn't that strange in contemporary context. God didn't become omni-whatever until after he emigrated to Europe. In Ezekiel's time, he was just another tribal deity among many, each with his own people, getting into slug-fests with one another, above and below. Sometimes the Hebrews lost. That had to be explained away, just as their victories had to be crowed and gloated over, in scripture. They probably lost far more often than they won, so there are lots of stories about wrongdoing and straying form the path of righteousness and following the wrong leader or set of laws. After a particularly severe drubbing, i suppose even cocky little Yaweh admitted to a mistake.
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07-01-2012, 06:35 PM
RE: Is this the strangest verse in the Bible?
(07-01-2012 04:36 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(07-01-2012 02:15 PM)cufflink Wrote:  In Ezekiel 20, YHWH is speaking to Ezekiel about his dealings with the Israelites. And he says:

20:25 Moreover, I gave them laws that were not good and rules by which they could not live.

Huh? God is admitting he gave his people laws that were not good? Rules he knew they could not live by? What the hell is that all about?

Here's the context--not that it helps:

Ezekiel 20:23-26
However, I swore to them in the wilderness that I would scatter them among the nations and disperse them through the lands, because they did not obey My rules, but rejected My laws, profaned My sabbaths, and looked with longing to the fetishes of their fathers. Moreover, I gave them laws that were not good and rules by which they could not live. When they set aside every first issue of the womb, I defiled them by their very gifts--that I might render them desolate, that they might know that I am the Lord.

So God deliberately gave his people rotten laws as some kind of punishment? Interesting. I wonder which OT statutes fall into that category.

I'm sure the apologists have some acrobatics up their sleeves to explain away the weirdness of this verse. To an objective reader, though, it's just another example--albeit a particularly striking one--of YHWH being a dick.

No apolpgetics. God created evil. God created humans to sin. Since He is omniscient, He is quite aware of the fallen nature of man and our inability to not sin. He created us that way.

It was according to His plan, so that Christ would have purpose. This is also a reason why I can't understand any theist who subscribes to the Arminian theology. If you have read the Bible, it's blatantly obvious that humans have no control over what God does.

Hi KC. Could you give us just ONE citation of a "reputable" theologian who says "god created evil" ? If god were omniscient, it would have known it was going to "be sorry" it created humans, (the flood myth). How could it "be sorry" if it "knew" what was going to happen ? So god makes mistakes. ok It's sort of a backhanded justification of "Christ's purpose", no ? If god were not a jerk, it could have just said, "oh forget it", instead of setting up the grand "pay-back scheme", in the first place. (If it was constrained by THAT system, it was not the creator of everything.) Actually the grand pay-back scheme is not mentioned until Paul introduced it. Yeshua bar Josef never said that's what he was about, or even reputed to have said anything about a grand pay-back scheme, certainly NEVER said that was why he was executed. It was a LATER development. The concept of "free will" has been debunked. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ4nwTTmcgs
That paradigm seems flawed from every angle.

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07-01-2012, 06:54 PM
RE: Is this the strangest verse in the Bible?
(07-01-2012 06:35 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Hi KC. Could you give us just ONE citation of a "reputable" theologian who says "god created evil" ?

Isaiah the prophet.

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07-01-2012, 07:22 PM
RE: Is this the strangest verse in the Bible?
(07-01-2012 06:54 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(07-01-2012 06:35 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Hi KC. Could you give us just ONE citation of a "reputable" theologian who says "god created evil" ?

Isaiah the prophet.

Which one ? There were at least three that I know of. Verse, and context please.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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07-01-2012, 07:33 PM (This post was last modified: 07-01-2012 07:46 PM by Kaos MD.)
RE: Is this the strangest verse in the Bible?
(07-01-2012 04:36 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  No apolpgetics. God created evil. God created humans to sin. Since He is omniscient, He is quite aware of the fallen nature of man and our inability to not sin. He created us that way.

It was according to His plan, so that Christ would have purpose. This is also a reason why I can't understand any theist who subscribes to the Arminian theology. If you have read the Bible, it's blatantly obvious that humans have no control over what God does.

So God is aware that he has begot an imperfect creation to sin purposefully in order to give his "son" a purpose for which his son didn't need to have a purpose in the first place if he had just made his creation perfect? I don't know how that makes any sense at all. For an omniscient and omnipotent god that has to be the most idiotic plan ever.
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07-01-2012, 07:34 PM
RE: Is this the strangest verse in the Bible?
(07-01-2012 04:36 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  No apolpgetics. God created evil. God created humans to sin. Since He is omniscient, He is quite aware of the fallen nature of man and our inability to not sin. He created us that way.

It was according to His plan, so that Christ would have purpose. This is also a reason why I can't understand any theist who subscribes to the Arminian theology. If you have read the Bible, it's blatantly obvious that humans have no control over what God does.

God created humans to sin, because he needed someone to save, knowing full well that he was only going to save a few while the rest were going to be tortured forever?

Your theology may avoid the contradictions caused by an omnibenevolent god, but I'm amazed that anyone would consider such a deity worthy of worship.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it seems like you believe we're nothing but instruments for his sick "plan" to be discarded or saved at his whim.
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