Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
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19-04-2012, 07:52 PM
Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
Hey guys, I joined this forum because I'm an atheist and have been since I was about 15-16 (22 now). My conversion had probably the most profound impact on my character that anything in my life ever has.



Being that I suddenly felt intellectually 'awakened', if you will, I began to address numerous beliefs I had held in the past and did away with many of them. But the one that seems to be coming up frequently nowadays is animal rights, and whether it's morally acceptable to kill animals for food or use them to produce other animal products such as dairy or eggs.



At the moment, I eat a smaller amount of meat than ever before, partly for health reasons and partly because while I don't yet buy into the idea that it's immoral to kill animals 100%, I probably feel slightly uncomfortable at the very least and unsure of the answer.



So what do you guys think? As an atheist I feel that certain positions regarding morality are almost a given, such as the acceptance of homosexuality. Veganism is not nearly as directly related, but is it similarly important for any intellectually awakened person to accept?
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19-04-2012, 07:58 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
Veganism can get lost. Meat power!!!!

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19-04-2012, 08:20 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
Oh shit. The new guy just stumbled into a hornets nest!

Just kiddin waves. I'll go into this one with ya, but it may be a day or two.

You have just begun reading the sentence you have just finished reading.
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19-04-2012, 08:39 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
I couldn't give a non-biased version myself--but then I'm a vegetarian.

The simple version is I don't view myself as more valuable than any other animal (given the universe/planet), and I have no reason to kill or harm another animal--so I don't. Now if ants come into my house.... well that's a war I've been engaged in since I was a child, they started it, I'll kill millions of them, but yeah, they'll outlive me. I even plant the seeds to vegetables I buy (I figure the plant meant to create new life, who am I to say it shouldn't be allowed?).

I just try to coexist with the fellow animals (and plants in a "we exist on earth" type of way). There's no reason not to, and I like trying to make new plants by crossing types just for fun. I'm working on a habenero-bell pepper plant this season. I've even discovered neat things like I planted probably 50 bell pepper plants and let them live inside. All but 2 died. These two are over 2 years old! They produce fruit (albeit smaller).

My point on the last bit of rambling being this: by letting more animals do their thing, I can learn more about them and their interactions. It's hard not to put human-based thoughts on their actions, but still it is amazing just watching animals do their thing without fear, and appear to learn--and even more so watching plants "evolve" into different types--like my pepper plants, they were not "mini pepper plants" that I bought, but they are capable of it. Just by an odd chance, 4% of the pepper plants just happened to be indoor-growing miniplants. When I start growing their offspring, I may end up with pepper plants that thrive indoors, and don't survive well outdoors. It's just neat to me.
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19-04-2012, 09:19 PM
No.
It is a choice, not as baseline.

Nature is red in tooth and claw. I don't want to be unnatural.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-04-2012, 10:43 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(19-04-2012 07:52 PM)streetwaves Wrote:  Hey guys, I joined this forum because I'm an atheist and have been since I was about 15-16 (22 now). My conversion had probably the most profound impact on my character that anything in my life ever has.



Being that I suddenly felt intellectually 'awakened', if you will, I began to address numerous beliefs I had held in the past and did away with many of them. But the one that seems to be coming up frequently nowadays is animal rights, and whether it's morally acceptable to kill animals for food or use them to produce other animal products such as dairy or eggs.



At the moment, I eat a smaller amount of meat than ever before, partly for health reasons and partly because while I don't yet buy into the idea that it's immoral to kill animals 100%, I probably feel slightly uncomfortable at the very least and unsure of the answer.



So what do you guys think? As an atheist I feel that certain positions regarding morality are almost a given, such as the acceptance of homosexuality. Veganism is not nearly as directly related, but is it similarly important for any intellectually awakened person to accept?

I think veganism is extreme.

I am sort of ova/lacto fishertarian and try to avoid overt and covert ultra animal cruelty.

I also see fish/vegies/grrains etc as a heathy lifestyle choice .

Small efforts by big groups IMO is preferable to all forms of radicalism.

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19-04-2012, 10:46 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
I believe killing animals for food is not that immoral, unless they come from a place where they are treated badly and stuffed about 10 to a stall. If not though, would their lives not be amazing? They get to eat to their hearts content, do not have to fight to survive, and if you are a virile male you get... benefits. Would you not want a life like this?

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20-04-2012, 01:12 AM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
Yeah, it all depends on your own view of things and life, the universe and everything else...

I just love meat too much to be able to concern myself with morality involved around it. While I do not like the meat industry and how they produce the meat and meat products, it is not something I can control and affect. So I go by my more basic needs/wishes and that is to satisfy my hunger and enjoy in it. I also try to buy meat from small, domestic farms, not from big corporations... Luckily I live in a country that still has some farmers that keep live stock...

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20-04-2012, 01:19 AM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
Nature can be immoral, true. It's a choice to take the moral high ground in any case.

I think pain is probably one of the worst things, even before death. So, ethical treatment of animals is important. Deep down I do think it's not so right to cause death or suffering to any sentient being. However, I wonder about how intelligence plays a part, and memory. At some point it really does become a non issue. When I discovered that pigs can mourn their dead that kind of made me think twice. Lucky for me I am not big on meat, especially pork. Before I really understood what it was as a child I didn't care for it. I eat a pescitarian diet based on health choices, so in the end this makes it easier for me to not worry about the morality bit of things too much.

I think I won't say too much more for now, I think I killed the last vegetarian discussion Confused Ha ha.
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20-04-2012, 01:49 AM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
I used to be a vegetarian and back then I found vegans stupid.
Mainly for the reasons I heard why they wouldn't consume eggs or milk.
At eggs I could at least understand. There is a lot of cruelty where the eggs come from, but even there you can chose to pay a little more and consume eggs where they are not treated cruel.
And the same goes for milk. One told me that, "they milk the cow until she bleeds, milking the cow hurts it so bad" ... sorry? It will hurt the cow if you don't milk it and I have seen places where cows are milked and they do not bleed.

And just saying, the same goes for the meat we eat. There are places where animals live in cruel conditions and are slaughtered. There are also places where the animals have some space to walk around, get daylight and food and clean stalls, and they killed fast. This meat will cost a bit more but at least you can be sure there was no cruelty.

Now about the whole argument that we don't need to eat meat.
Ever checked the human teeth?
We have carnassial tooth! These are meant for meat, for ripping meat apart when we bite.
We evolved into a species that eats everything. This gave us an advantage throughout evolution.
So no we don't NEED to eat, but if someone WANTS to, leave them alone.
Someone once told me that, we are not supposed to eat meat because we can't process it raw. BS! Sure we can process it!

When I was a vegeterian it had a few simple reasons:
- I didn't like meat for the taste
- I didn't have the cash to by it
- I did not want to be a part of animal cruelty (although this reason fell once things got better)

Now I do eat meat. Not because I love it so much, not because pro-reasons that where presented to me. For practical reasons. I am not going to cook two meals every evening, so I cook stuff containing meat because my hubby will get grumpy if he doesn't get enough meat.

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