Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
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30-04-2012, 12:08 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
Interesting video that was in a astrophysics playlist on YouTube. Funny considering I'm currently active in this thread.




Kind of gives you a sense of just how ingrained our instinct to consume meat is. This video also confirms my claims that the main reason for being an omnivore was for nutrients and energy.

Again, it doesn't justify the continued consumption of meat. I'm just pointing it out to give you a little perspective on how tough it is probably going to be to have the human race let go of meat consumption.

“We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.”

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30-04-2012, 12:41 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
First, I must say, I think some of you need to spend some time with a suffering animal. Or watch one be slaughtered inhumanely. I know for a fact that animals feel pain and suffering. Yep, I said fact. It's not a belief, it's knowledge. And if you ask me for a scientific study to back it up, you can shove your study so far up your ass that you choke on it. Being a skeptic, or scientifically minded does not make you a robot. Grow up and debate reality.

Second, I think there's some people on both sides of this debate that are reading far too little of their opponents posts, and reading far too much into them. Some of the corrections and clarifications in this thread shouldn't be necessary at all. Stop making assumptions about what others mean, and start asking if you are unclear.

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30-04-2012, 12:55 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(30-04-2012 12:41 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  First, I must say, I think some of you need to spend some time with a suffering animal. Or watch one be slaughtered inhumanely. I know for a fact that animals feel pain and suffering. Yep, I said fact. It's not a belief, it's knowledge. And if you ask me for a scientific study to back it up, you can shove your study so far up your ass that you choke on it. Being a skeptic, or scientifically minded does not make you a robot. Grow up and debate reality.

Second, I think there's some people on both sides of this debate that are reading far too little of their opponents posts, and reading far too much into them. Some of the corrections and clarifications in this thread shouldn't be necessary at all. Stop making assumptions about what others mean, and start asking if you are unclear.
Quote:First,
I must say, I think some of you need to spend some time with a
suffering animal. Or watch one be slaughtered inhumanely. I know for a fact that
animals feel pain and suffering. Yep, I said fact. It's not a belief,
it's knowledge. And if you ask me for a scientific study to back it up,
you can shove your study so far up your ass that you choke on it. Being a
skeptic, or scientifically minded does not make you a robot. Grow up
and debate reality.

Second, I think there's some people on both sides of this debate that are reading far too little of their opponents posts, and reading far too much into
them. Some of the corrections and clarifications in this thread
shouldn't be necessary at all. Stop making assumptions about what others
mean, and start asking if you are unclear.


Animals feel pain....dang... Consider

How many years of dedicated research did this take to figure out?

Actually you seem to sympathize with NSV, and imo are reading more into his posts than are there. The only argument he has is his station upon the moral highground.

Who even hinted that animals didn't feel pain? Other than that fish debate, which seemed pretty legitimate.
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30-04-2012, 01:19 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
Ugh! You read what you wanted to see, not what I wrote. Try again.

I didn't accuse someone of claiming animals felt no pain. I suggested that some people should gain this knowledge first hand. See it. Hear it. If you witness it, you will know. If you are going to depend on a scientist to tell you, that's fine, but knowing because you gained the knowledge for yourself will give a perspective to the debate that you can't have otherwise. You just can't comprehend the suffering without seeing it.

But hey, congratulations on proving my point exactly.

Oh, and you can put your sarcasm in the same place as your scientific study.

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30-04-2012, 02:13 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
This thread is rated BS for ignorance, hypocrisy, and self-righteousness. Tongue

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30-04-2012, 02:22 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
I made an strictly ethic argument in a previous post but nobody care to read it or I'm on everybody's ignore list, either way, I'm with HoC here, there's not much of an argument as opinions being flung to either side of the "debate", who knew meat would be such a sensitive topic

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30-04-2012, 02:30 PM (This post was last modified: 30-04-2012 02:34 PM by Antirepublican.)
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(30-04-2012 01:19 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Ugh! You read what you wanted to see, not what I wrote. Try again.

I didn't accuse someone of claiming animals felt no pain. I suggested that some people should gain this knowledge first hand. See it. Hear it. If you witness it, you will know. If you are going to depend on a scientist to tell you, that's fine, but knowing because you gained the knowledge for yourself will give a perspective to the debate that you can't have otherwise. You just can't comprehend the suffering without seeing it.

But hey, congratulations on proving my point exactly.

Oh, and you can put your sarcasm in the same place as your scientific study.
You don't need to watch some PETA video to understand animals feel pain. People are surrounded by animals every day, hell we are animals. So where are you getting this sweeping generalization that people don't have any experience with animals in pain?


NSV has placed himself on his moral highground looking down on the rest of us.
However, morals are completely arbitrary, and they cannot be proven to be facts. You can perhaps make justifications for them via nature and tradition, but thats about as far it goes.
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30-04-2012, 02:51 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(30-04-2012 01:19 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Ugh! You read what you wanted to see, not what I wrote. Try again.

I didn't accuse someone of claiming animals felt no pain. I suggested that some people should gain this knowledge first hand. See it. Hear it. If you witness it, you will know. If you are going to depend on a scientist to tell you, that's fine, but knowing because you gained the knowledge for yourself will give a perspective to the debate that you can't have otherwise. You just can't comprehend the suffering without seeing it.

But hey, congratulations on proving my point exactly.

Oh, and you can put your sarcasm in the same place as your scientific study.
Who says we haven't seen animals in pain? It's highly plausible that anyone that has owned a pet for the duration of its life has seen it suffer in pain.

On the flip side, when I went to the Philippines recently to my wife's farm province, I saw them butchering goats, cows, and chickens. Yup, chicken screamed until the head was promptly cut-off. I think it screamed initially from just being handled. Maybe it did feel pain the moment the knife hit the neck. That is something we cannot know... well, at least not without attaching some brain scanner to it at first and even then, it would be circumstantial.

But as I've said for myself, I made positive changes in my life by taking actions like self-protesting KFC and purchasing chicken from big brands. But even then, admittedly, I cannot pass up a very frugal deal on chicken in a store if it's from a big brand. I'm sorry, but I'm not rich. I have a family to feed. Sometimes the deal is too good to pass up (I usually buy large quantities).

I think what you're missing Stark is the fact that a lot of us are on the defensive due to the manner in which Vacuous debates us. The interactions without Vacuous involved are perfectly civil. It is when Vacuous comes into the picture people get more passionate.

Others have stated, he is coming off as someone that is riding high on a horse. Or at least someone that thinks he is.

Look at his replies to me. Constant battery of arrogance in all of his replies.

There is a not-so-startling parallel between his debate style and a Hovind style theist.

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30-04-2012, 02:59 PM (This post was last modified: 30-04-2012 03:11 PM by Stark Raving.)
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
I get the sweeping generalization that people haven't seen animals being slaughtered inhumanely because most people haven't! If you think I,m talking about some PETA video, it shows your ignorance.

Really, if I have to hold your hand and walk you through every word for you to understand, it's just not worth it. You won't be able to admit you jumped to your own conclusions anyways.
Noah, I hear what you're saying, but it's not that I'm missing the fact that people are on the defensive because of NSVs style, it,s that I'm saying to look past his style, and take into account his points. Maybe they're valid, maybe not, but they are not getting the scrutiny they deserve precisely because people are on the defensive.

Look, I'm not on any side of this debate. At least not in this particular forum. My experience with it, however is deeper than most. I know how emotionally charged it can get. (I slaughter my chickens, at home, and was once accosted by a person making a delivery in my very own driveway with a dead chicken in my hand. Trust me, I've seen it get far more heated than this) But that gets in the way, especially when someone comes,along and has a "style" that others find offensive.


And for,the record, regardless of your individual experience, the vast majority have never witnessed, first hand, how their meat is slaughtered.

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30-04-2012, 03:26 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(30-04-2012 02:59 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  I get the sweeping generalization that people haven't seen animals being slaughtered inhumanely because most people haven't! If you think I,m talking about some PETA video, it shows your ignorance.

Really, if I have to hold your hand and walk you through every word for you to understand, it's just not worth it. You won't be able to admit you jumped to your own conclusions anyways.
Noah, I hear what you're saying, but it's not that I'm missing the fact that people are on the defensive because of NSVs style, it,s that I'm saying to look past his style, and take into account his points. Maybe they're valid, maybe not, but they are not getting the scrutiny they deserve precisely because people are on the defensive.

Look, I'm not on any side of this debate. At least not in this particular forum. My experience with it, however is deeper than most. I know how emotionally charged it can get. (I slaughter my chickens, at home, and was once accosted by a person making a delivery in my very own driveway with a dead chicken in my hand. Trust me, I've seen it get far more heated than this) But that gets in the way, especially when someone comes,along and has a "style" that others find offensive.


And for,the record, regardless of your individual experience, the vast majority have never witnessed, first hand, how their meat is slaughtered.
I have debated Vacuous' points. But yes, I did so zealously because of his initial offense. My more recent rebuttal (two or three ago?) was turned down a few degrees. He still responded with a shit ton of arrogance in every single reply of his.

He's under the constant assumption that I'm trying to use the nature argument to "justify" the continual consumption of meat. I am doing no such thing. After all, I personally don't believe that consuming meat requires justification. Going against our deep rooted nature by becoming a vegan is what requires an explanation. His morality angle is good enough for me. I even acknowledged that it could be the "moral highroad". In the end however, the subject of morality is a highly subjective matter.

Vacuous argues like this is a matter of fact. Actually, like it's a matter of HIS fact.

My main refute was towards the original topic of this thread...

Veganism CANNOT be the moral baseline. To claim this is to suggest that meat eaters are immoral no matter their situation or class.

With that in mind, if in fact veganism is the moral baseline, then I'm happy that I don't partake in that arrogant morality.

“We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.”

-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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