Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
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21-04-2012, 07:40 AM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(21-04-2012 06:08 AM)Ghost Wrote:  ....

Hey, Elemts.

Tell whoever that's telling you that to look at their teeth, top row, third from the centre. They're canines. Front teeth are for slicing, canines are for rending and molars are for grinding. We have the teeth of omnivours. If they disagree, refer them to a dentist Cool

....
Oh they know what those are--front teeth are also needed for fruits and vegetables (apples/carrots being the quick/easy examples, but really almost anything applies), so the main part is there are only a few carnivore-only based teeth (normally the comparison is "look at cats teeth, compare it to humans" [some add dogs, only as they are not omnivores by "default" as much]. Vegetarians know they are omnivores by available parts--many just say that given our teeth/bodies, we are still designed to eat vegetation, and should eat more of that than anything (even the food charts (ex: FDA), daily food intake, etc show that).

Of course, many of you might not realize this, but there's about the same type of situation between theists and atheists argueing as vegetarians and people who eat meat (not everything, but just some of the stupid comments, vegetarians know different things, they just keep them out because they're covered so much they get tired of repeating it). There are way too many meat eaters that say "yep I'm a carnivore, can't live without the stuff" to which the vegetarians say "no, you're a omnivore, and you should be eating more vegetables/fruits/grains than protein". I've even heard "you know Hitler was a vegetarian!" which gets a "oh not that again" response.
Of course, the vegans treat vegetarians about the same at times (you'd be surprised... some vegans are "stuck up" and "holier-than-thou" toward vegetarians because they are evil [many are really nice and don't think anything of it]). Then there's the fruitarians.... and I personally say they're the crazy ones (they won't eat potatoes, but will eat bell peppers, at least some--if eating the food kills the plant, they won't eat it, and if it comes from an animal, they won't either). And don't ask a vegan about honey.... get a group of them together and ask that, and a verbal-fight could break out.

Ironically in a sense, a number of theists I know like the idea of vegetarianism because it was like the garden of eden before the fall--yet many of them at least percentage wise based on some board's polls and such, are atheist. That just reminded me of the dumbest thing I've ever seen before: "You're only atheist because you don't eat meat!"
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21-04-2012, 11:14 AM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
I never understood how some vegans can swear off meat, yet consider fish different.
Or even dairy and eggs for that matter...
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21-04-2012, 11:24 AM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(21-04-2012 11:14 AM)Antirepublican Wrote:  I never understood how some vegans can swear off meat, yet consider fish different.
Or even dairy and eggs for that matter...
By defination, they wouldn't. A Lacto Ovo Pescatarian would. Like technically a vegetarian is a "lacto ovo" (one or the other, or both) vegetarian (although it's safer to assume a vegetarian doesn't eat either). Now the complicated part, and one distinction, is that most (if not all-but all) vegans don't buy leather shoes or such either. Vegetarians may.

It's really a big mess in ways. But for vegetarians, it's a matter of "if the animal has to be killed or harmed" for food. Eggs or dairy doesn't require the death of the animal (granted there'd be a crap-load of cows....), just "in theory". Like for me, I don't buy milk (itself, I'll buy cheese at times) or eggs; however, some of the vegetarian foods I buy have eggs in them.

And I have to rely on leather shoes (although I try for ones that are more fabric than leather). From a vegan standpoint, it's hypocritical--and from mine I'd prefer not to, there's just no substitutes around me (and seriously, not going to move just for it). At the same time, not all vegetarians are in it because of the animal welfare.
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21-04-2012, 12:15 PM (This post was last modified: 21-04-2012 12:19 PM by Antirepublican.)
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
Yes eggs and dairy producers are not directly responsible for killing the animals, sure. However, they are responsible for the dreadful conditions those animals live in. Also, don't the egg and dairy produces send the older livestock to slaughter when they start getting too old?

So, if they are coming at this whole vegetarian lifestyle from a moral stand point, then it makes no sense to ignore eggs, dairy, and fish.

(21-04-2012 11:24 AM)elemts Wrote:  And I have to rely on leather shoes (although I try for ones that are more fabric than leather). From a vegan standpoint, it's hypocritical--and from mine I'd prefer not to, there's just no substitutes around me (and seriously, not going to move just for it). At the same time, not all vegetarians are in it because of the animal welfare.
If it's not moral, then what else could it be?

I would find it hard to believe they don't like the taste of any meant product given the huge variety out there.
I would find it equally hard to believe that being a vegetarian is a healthier lifestyle.
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21-04-2012, 12:32 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
Sup, Elemts.

Quote:Oh they know what those are--front teeth are also needed for fruits and
vegetables (apples/carrots being the quick/easy examples, but really
almost anything applies), so the main part is there are only a few
carnivore-only based teeth (normally the comparison is "look at cats
teeth, compare it to humans" [some add dogs, only as they are not
omnivores by "default" as much]. Vegetarians know they are omnivores by
available parts--many just say that given our teeth/bodies, we are still
designed to eat vegetation, and should eat more of that than anything
(even the food charts (ex: FDA), daily food intake, etc show that).

I ain't no dentist, but I do know one of the things that separates humans from pretty much all other mammals. We have sweet fuck all bite strength. The muscle that controls biting in a silverback gorilla is the size of our quadricep! Humans don't have bite strength because we have large skulls (or the other way around). A huge bite muscle would crush our skull, which we need for our precious brains (mmmmmmm, brains). I can only imagine that it takes a lot of bite force to drive a long canine into something. And that if you can't keep your jaw tight on something thrashing madly, that they might just snap off. That, to me, accounts for our small canines. But irregardfullyless, they are canines.



Quote:Of course, many of you might not realize this, but there's about the
same type of situation between theists and atheists argueing as
vegetarians and people who eat meat (not everything, but just some of
the stupid comments, vegetarians know different things, they just keep
them out because they're covered so much they get tired of repeating
it). There are way too many meat eaters that say "yep I'm a carnivore,
can't live without the stuff" to which the vegetarians say "no, you're a
omnivore, and you should be eating more vegetables/fruits/grains than
protein". I've even heard "you know Hitler was a vegetarian!" which gets
a "oh not that again" response.

Of course, the vegans treat vegetarians about the same at times (you'd
be surprised... some vegans are "stuck up" and "holier-than-thou" toward
vegetarians because they are evil [many are really nice and don't think
anything of it]). Then there's the fruitarians.... and I personally say
they're the crazy ones (they won't eat potatoes, but will eat bell
peppers, at least some--if eating the food kills the plant, they won't
eat it, and if it comes from an animal, they won't either). And don't
ask a vegan about honey.... get a group of them together and ask that,
and a verbal-fight could break out.

Lol. Aint that the truth, brother.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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21-04-2012, 12:34 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(21-04-2012 11:14 AM)Antirepublican Wrote:  I never understood how some vegans can swear off meat, yet consider fish different.
Or even dairy and eggs for that matter...
They don't. Vegans don't eat those things.


Vegans don't eat any meat or by-product of an animal. There are two types of Vegans, this one and the other kind that will go as far to not use any by-product of animals either (ex leather couches)



Vegetarian's don't eat any meat (including fish) but they will eat the by-product.

After that there are different categories that aren't vegetarian but discriminate some meat, that you mentioned.

I forget all the names, but some don't eat red meat, maybe it's just pork, maybe only poultry or whatever. The One you described is Pescatarian, that's me. I don't eat land animal meats basically. Usually the reason someone chooses the path I do is because the industry is contaminated with growth products and pesticide feedings, etc. Fish can be too, but I get mine fresh for the most part (so not farmed fish). I still eat organic eggs and milk (which is one of the worst Confused ) half the time, the other half almond or rice. Cheese is my nemesis, I love it but it still has nasty components in the industry as well. I go through cheese phases, lol.

A vegetarian or vegan would have my head if I called myself that (I sometimes just say I'm vegetarian at social functions or whatever to make it easier) because this just confuses people, like your question, ha ha.
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21-04-2012, 12:53 PM (This post was last modified: 21-04-2012 12:57 PM by elemts.)
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(21-04-2012 12:15 PM)Antirepublican Wrote:  Yes eggs and dairy producers are not directly responsible for killing the animals, sure. However, they are responsible for the dreadful conditions those animals live in. Also, don't the egg and dairy produces send the older livestock to slaughter when they start getting too old?

So, if they are coming at this whole vegetarian lifestyle from a moral stand point, then it makes no sense to ignore eggs, dairy, and fish.
That's the vegan's problem with the vegetarians Smile and the main reason why I believe (can't say with complete certaintity) that those in it for moral reasons are more likely vegan--with a smaller group being a group that would eat the eggs/dairy. But as I mentioned before--no vegetarian eats fish. Those that say they are vegetarians that eat fish are quickly corrected on veg*n message boards (like they could say "my dad beats me..... I eat fish too.... I'm bullied at school" and they will probably have 1-2 pages of being corrected by the term before they get very many responses to the others. It's a sore topic--sorry for harping on it, I have an allergy to shellfish, and people normally think they are fish (that I have known) and some have tried to give it to me hidden in foods because "all vegetarians eat fish!"

I know (as in on-line) a few vegetarians that only eat eggs from a local free-range egg supplier, and some have their own cows/goats and live on a farm where they make their own. Granted this is rare, and some would do it if they could, but just saying not all go with the factory-based ones.

Many, from my interactions mind you, just settle on doing anything is better than nothing, so even a "regular" human diet that has meat cut down is better than not. Likewise, many veg*ns will wilfully allow dogs and cats to die, because more cats and dogs would die if they didn't (puppy mills, stores selling animals direct, and not pound-based ones)--because yes they'd be saving those, but then the place will re-supply with more. Also, many of the pre-packaged veg*n foods come from----the Dairy industry companies! Some veg*n's have traced the food companies back so far, that no matter what you eat or do, you are directly or indirectly supporting the meat and dairy industry.

Although to be honest, vegetarians also sometimes have other similarities such as growing their own food (pesticides are bad, fertilizer comes from animals, organic uses dead fish and other items--so really vegetables aren't "vegan" especially if done by fish farming fertilizer). Insects are on fruits and vegetables (disgusting thing, but vegetarians also acknowledge that they probably eat more insects than their counterparts, albeit not intentionally). Environmental concerns are paramount to some.... Some even tie in owning pets to it (many/most do--although they are also against it and view their own as "saving them from death"). Zoos are another concern.

Kind of like the bee issue. Bees are animals, so eating honey is exploiting an animal--yet the bees live longer when exploited than not... fleas and ticks and mosquitoes are animals... yet... hopefully you get the idea. It's the reason why it becomes a personal thing over anything else. Some vegetarians even want to be in a natural burial so their body can be nourishment for plants and trees--just so they can give back.



Basically they accept that all organizations thrive on death--the goal of vegans/vegetarians (who go for the moral/animal rights reasons) is to minimize death and suffering. And given the sources of the vegetarian foods and the fertilizer, all food requires death of something. So it becomes a personal choice of what the person finds acceptable and they
can live with.

And keep in mind I'm not speaking for all veg*n's just from my own interactions as there are others who view things different.


Edit:
As a note, when I type veg*n's it means vegan or vegetarian. While they are not interchancable (as vegan includes even clothing and cleaning products), it makes it "easier" and I'm used to typing that.

And there are different "main" types of veg*n's:
Fruitarian
Vegan/Strict Vegan (the "militant" ones)
Vegan (no animal products or byproducts of any kind)
Vegan (but eat honey)
Strict Vegetarian (a vegan as far as food, but not always for clothing/etc)
Vegetarian (may or may not eat honey, eggs and dairy, and may or may not worry about animal products in clothing)

And then all the others that do eat some meat.
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21-04-2012, 04:04 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
Vegan/vegetarian isn't the baseline for morality. Morality can, however, be based on veg,n lifestyle. But even then, it's often more about preventing suffering than thinking it immoral to consume meat. I know. Few veg,n's that make exceptions when they are truly able to determine how the animal was treated in life. Many veg,ns are labelled as being against eating meat when they are really just against torturing animals to get that meat. Same for eggs and dairy.

One thing I often say is that I think if you're going to eat meat (which I consider an important part of a healthy diet, but that's not what this thread is really about) you should know where it co es from in the very least. Course I take it a step further and only eat meat that I've hunted or raised myself, so I know exactly how it was raised, what it was fed, how it was treated, and how humanely it was slaughtered. There are many people who would do this if they could, but simply can't, so the next best step is to visit the Place where your food came from. And with a little effort, this is neither difficult, nor is the expense much more than buying at the grocery store.

My family eats lots of meat. Mostly chicken and rabbit, as well as one deer per year, and sometimes beef from a farm a few miles away. We raise our chickens and rabbits ourselves, from breeding to slaughter. We also raise laying hens, and eat tons of eggs from our girls. This summer our new goats will arrive, which will expand our menu to goats milk, lots of cheese (I love to make cheese, and I'm getting fairly good at it too!) and a young goat once a year for meat. Every last bit of this food falls within my moral boundaries because I feel that eating meat is natural, but factory farming it is most definitely not.

One often overlooked issue with factory farming is the waste. Now I think pretty muh every one recognizes that factory farming is a horrible thing to do to an animal. Not really any need to get into that even more. Watch a couple videos of feed lots or battery hen operations and it'll bring you right up to speed. But the overlooked issue of waste is also something that should factor into the morality of eating animal products.

Manure in feedlot situations (and almost all factory farming situations) is appalling. They take a valuable resource (manure) and concentrate it so heavily that it becomes poison. It is disposed of instead of used. It is considered garbage, when it should be worth more than gold. Think of it this way:
My chickens and rabbits supply me with enough food for my family of four, and about 6 or 8 others. All of their bedding is salvages stubble from wheat fields that would otherwise be burned instead of mixed back into the soil as organic matter. They poop in the bedding, enriching it with all kinds of nutrients, then I let nature run it's course, and the result is incredibly nutrient rich soil. That soil gets put into my garden as the sole fertilizer. That results in more veggies than even y extended family can eat. So the surplus goes to my local church (ya ya, I know) who then distribute all that food to local families in need. To give you an idea, last year I think we totaled just over half a TON of naturally grown veggies to people who can,t afford enough food.

And here's the kicker....other than borrowing a small tiller once a year to mix in y compost, I do it all with nothing more than hand tools. Nothing gets wasted, the impact is a positive one, people get nutritious food, and my moral grounds remain firmly embedded in a meat AND vegetable diet.

I may be outside the norm, but I am not one of a kind. If morality is the issue, find one of my fellow contrary farmers. We are out there. In fact, we are ready to start feeding ALL of you, if only you'd be willing to put morality ahead of money, and live within your means.

And if you think small farmers like me can't feed the world, think again. With diversity, a farm of only half an acre could produce enough food for a four person family, from meat to grains to veggies. I have 160 acres. Imagine how many people I could feed if only I had your support, and that of the government. And all that food would be produced in a humane, morally upright way.

So many cats, so few good recipes.
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23-04-2012, 02:04 AM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
Hey Stark, if I wanted to move to Canada, can you hook me up with some work there?

Big Grin

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I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
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23-04-2012, 06:17 AM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
STARK FOR PRIME MINISTER!

You're the shit, brother Cool

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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