Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
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23-04-2012, 08:53 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(23-04-2012 08:28 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  That's right, do what you do best as someone who is incapable of critical thinking, post idiotic remarks. Ignorance of your actions isn't justification for them. Thanks for proving my post correct by the way.

The OP was expecting serious responses. I cannot help your humor mimics that of what a dumbass would take as infallible logic. Take a look, others are using appeals to nature, not just your trivial response. Don't get mad at me when you intentionally made a post to sound stupid.

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24-04-2012, 02:02 PM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2012 02:41 PM by NotSoVacuous.)
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(23-04-2012 08:53 PM)germanyt Wrote:  
(23-04-2012 08:28 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  That's right, do what you do best as someone who is incapable of critical thinking, post idiotic remarks. Ignorance of your actions isn't justification for them. Thanks for proving my post correct by the way.

The OP was expecting serious responses. I cannot help your humor mimics that of what a dumbass would take as infallible logic. Take a look, others are using appeals to nature, not just your trivial response. Don't get mad at me when you intentionally made a post to sound stupid.

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I think this only enforces my previous posts.

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24-04-2012, 02:05 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(24-04-2012 02:02 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  
(23-04-2012 08:53 PM)germanyt Wrote:  [Image: never_go_full_retard.jpg]
I think the only enforces my previous posts.
Weeping

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24-04-2012, 02:24 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(23-04-2012 06:29 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Germany.

Don't get me wrong. Animal husbandry has its issues (the sedentarisation of man has caused some serious problems and that's only accomplished through agriculture and animal husbandry) but there is a huge difference between, say, Stark's farm, and (WARNING!!!! I watched like 2 seconds of this video and had to turn it off. For real, I was about to cry. DO NOT WATCH THIS VIDEO UNLESS YOU ARE PREPARED TO SEE HORRIBLE THINGS. There are things in life that you cannot un-see) a factory farm.

It isn't about abandoning meat or animal husbandry, or even hunting for that matter (although sport hunters are scum in my book). It's about our humanity and what we're willing to accept. There are limits. It's not a binary all or nothing situation.

ON EDIT: I was a vegan for 7.5 years. Since I went back to eating meat, maybe a year and a half ago, I have been completely conscious of the fact that although I cannot abide factory farming, I'm eating factory farmed meat anyway. I have settled the cognitive dissonance by purposefully ignoring my disgust with factory farming. This thread is returning the anxiety of that dissonance and making me rethink eating meat again. This is very difficult for me.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Do you feel that we must obliterate nature?

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24-04-2012, 02:41 PM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2012 02:52 PM by NotSoVacuous.)
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(23-04-2012 03:55 PM)germanyt Wrote:  
(23-04-2012 03:29 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Germany.

Humans are in the food web. Food chain is an outmoded term. Too linear. We're in a system. Systems form webs of connections. We're in the web, not atop it. But I grant you, meat is tasty. Ejaculating in a vagina feels great too but that doesn't make rape OK. Factory farming is worse than rape. It's rape, torture, imprisonment and murder. I'm not saying that means no one should eat meat, but that greater thought is called for.

Yo, NSV.

Preach, brother! Straight up.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
I could understand a moral objection to cattle farming but farming is what helped build communties and ended the days of the hunter/getherer. No longer did people have to travel long distances to find a good hunt. We are meat eaters and that will not change without some serious social and biological evolution. I'm thinking tens of thousands of years of behavior modification are necessary for it to happen. We are going to kill and eat the animals anyway. Why is it so different though to breed animals specifically for this purpose than it is to just hunt them all down?
Your previous posts--along with this one--are rampant with appeals to nature. I don't understand why I need to keep expressing that this is fallacious; stop that. As far as us being meat eaters, I will agree. We are also plant eaters though, and we can survive solely on plants too. I also would contend that I think if we played the game with grace, that we could obtain milk/eggs more than humanely--unlike we do today.

The issue is, we might be more intelligent/aware of our existence, but that should place responsibility on our shoulders--not entitlement. Despite these animals having the ability to know they are going to die or not, they do suffer. They do feel emotional stress, physical pain, and fear. Our acknowledgment of that should make us moral agents. In being agents, we know this is bad, and we should devise a plan to circumvent it. There are plans, and sadly, few follow them.
(24-04-2012 02:24 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Do you feel that we must obliterate nature?
Please, someone, for the love of god, tell me why we keep going back to appeals to nature. Explain to me why it is a justification for anything. If you are doing things, because it is "natural" you need to step back and rethink the situation. There are better reasons for doing things than "it is natural."

Example: I have sex, not because it is natural, but because it feels good, and harms no one. (There's a joke or two coming from this, I feel it...)
Example: I eat, because I want to live, not because I have to because nature intended it that way.

A better justification for your actions must be found.

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24-04-2012, 02:46 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(24-04-2012 02:41 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  
(23-04-2012 03:55 PM)germanyt Wrote:  I could understand a moral objection to cattle farming but farming is what helped build communties and ended the days of the hunter/getherer. No longer did people have to travel long distances to find a good hunt. We are meat eaters and that will not change without some serious social and biological evolution. I'm thinking tens of thousands of years of behavior modification are necessary for it to happen. We are going to kill and eat the animals anyway. Why is it so different though to breed animals specifically for this purpose than it is to just hunt them all down?
Your previous posts--along with this one--are rampant with appeals to nature. I don't understand why I need to keep expressing that this is fallacious; stop that. As far as us being meat eaters, I will agree. We are also plant eaters though, and we can survive solely on plants too. I also would contend that I think if we played the game with grace, that we could obtain milk/eggs more than humanely--unlike we do today.

The issue is, we might be more intelligent/aware of our existence, but that should place responsibility on our shoulders--not entitlement. Despite these animals having the ability to know they are going to die or not, they do suffer. They do feel emotional stress, physical pain, and fear. Our acknowledgment of that should make us moral agents. In being agents, we know this is bad, and we should devise a plan to circumvent it. There are plans, and sadly, few follow them.
I don't really know what to say man. Most arguements I hear against eating meat are based on the conditions in which animals are raised and the methods by which they are slaughtered. Sure a bullet would be less painful than cutting the throat but you can't sharpen and reuse a bullet. And bullets aren't cheap. It's a dirty world out there and animal farming is part of it. I don't mind at all if you chose not to eat meat but slaughterhouses don't bother me (as long as the workers are humane and decent to the animals) and I happen to enjoy eating meat and don't even mourn the death of people, much less a cow.

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24-04-2012, 02:47 PM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2012 02:53 PM by Logica Humano.)
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(24-04-2012 02:41 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  
(23-04-2012 03:55 PM)germanyt Wrote:  I could understand a moral objection to cattle farming but farming is what helped build communties and ended the days of the hunter/getherer. No longer did people have to travel long distances to find a good hunt. We are meat eaters and that will not change without some serious social and biological evolution. I'm thinking tens of thousands of years of behavior modification are necessary for it to happen. We are going to kill and eat the animals anyway. Why is it so different though to breed animals specifically for this purpose than it is to just hunt them all down?
Your previous posts--along with this one--are rampant with appeals to nature. I don't understand why I need to keep expressing that this is fallacious; stop that. As far as us being meat eaters, I will agree. We are also plant eaters though, and we can survive solely on plants too. I also would contend that I think if we played the game with grace, that we could obtain milk/eggs more than humanely--unlike we do today.

The issue is, we might be more intelligent/aware of our existence, but that should place responsibility on our shoulders--not entitlement. Despite these animals having the ability to know they are going to die or not, they do suffer. They do feel emotional stress, physical pain, and fear. Our acknowledgment of that should make us moral agents. In being agents, we know this is bad, and we should devise a plan to circumvent it. There are plans, and sadly, few follow them.
The fact that we have "self awareness" (whatever this means) is not sufficient enough a reason to say that eating meat is wrong.

(24-04-2012 02:46 PM)germanyt Wrote:  
(24-04-2012 02:41 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  Your previous posts--along with this one--are rampant with appeals to nature. I don't understand why I need to keep expressing that this is fallacious; stop that. As far as us being meat eaters, I will agree. We are also plant eaters though, and we can survive solely on plants too. I also would contend that I think if we played the game with grace, that we could obtain milk/eggs more than humanely--unlike we do today.

The issue is, we might be more intelligent/aware of our existence, but that should place responsibility on our shoulders--not entitlement. Despite these animals having the ability to know they are going to die or not, they do suffer. They do feel emotional stress, physical pain, and fear. Our acknowledgment of that should make us moral agents. In being agents, we know this is bad, and we should devise a plan to circumvent it. There are plans, and sadly, few follow them.
I don't really know what to say man. Most arguements I hear against eating meat are based on the conditions in which animals are raised and the methods by which they are slaughtered. Sure a bullet would be less painful than cutting the throat but you can't sharpen and reuse a bullet. And bullets aren't cheap. It's a dirty world out there and animal farming is part of it. I don't mind at all if you chose not to eat meat but slaughterhouses don't bother me (as long as the workers are humane and decent to the animals) and I happen to enjoy eating meat and don't even mourn the death of people, much less a cow.

Conventional slaughtering techniques do not even require such an inhumane action as the cutting of the throat.

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24-04-2012, 02:49 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(24-04-2012 02:47 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(24-04-2012 02:41 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  Your previous posts--along with this one--are rampant with appeals to nature. I don't understand why I need to keep expressing that this is fallacious; stop that. As far as us being meat eaters, I will agree. We are also plant eaters though, and we can survive solely on plants too. I also would contend that I think if we played the game with grace, that we could obtain milk/eggs more than humanely--unlike we do today.

The issue is, we might be more intelligent/aware of our existence, but that should place responsibility on our shoulders--not entitlement. Despite these animals having the ability to know they are going to die or not, they do suffer. They do feel emotional stress, physical pain, and fear. Our acknowledgment of that should make us moral agents. In being agents, we know this is bad, and we should devise a plan to circumvent it. There are plans, and sadly, few follow them.
The fact that we have "self awareness" (whatever this means) is not sufficient enough a reason to say that eating meat is wrong.
Dophins are also self aware. They don't eat seaweed.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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24-04-2012, 02:56 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(24-04-2012 02:49 PM)germanyt Wrote:  
(24-04-2012 02:47 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  The fact that we have "self awareness" (whatever this means) is not sufficient enough a reason to say that eating meat is wrong.
Dophins are also self aware. They don't eat seaweed.
Orcas are self aware. They play with their food (aka Seals).

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24-04-2012, 03:01 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(24-04-2012 02:56 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(24-04-2012 02:49 PM)germanyt Wrote:  Dophins are also self aware. They don't eat seaweed.
Orcas are self aware. They play with their food (aka Seals).
I'm gonna start chasing live chickens and pigs around the yard before I eat them. Big Grin


Honestly though, I think vegetarianism and veganism are just symptoms of an oversensitivity to animals. I don't mean this to sound bad but it's probably more of a human defect than moral enlightenment.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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