Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
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26-04-2012, 05:46 AM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
Pih, that is all you want? Look around you and then redefine the word "natural". All those things you just said are natural today. That is because we live in a fucked up word, we are all corrupted by our technology and scientific advances. So, fuck it, "natural" is one of those archaic words, something we have lost and redefined to suit our modern needs.

But worry not, after the WW3 we will all be forced to go back to the nature, this time in a real sense. Then you will have to eat meat, because there would be no choosing what you want to eat, but what you have for eating.

Thanx to human stupidity, it may come sooner than you would expect. Pray to your Gods that I am just being stupid all the time.

Smile

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26-04-2012, 08:18 AM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(26-04-2012 05:24 AM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  
(25-04-2012 10:10 PM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  Eating meat is natural. We don't need a handful of supplements to stay alive, you do, or a very specific diet.

Who said we are better than animals? We are animals. Sounds like a straw man to me. Since that was your only argument against the natural argument, then I guess that means you lose.

Also, I will justify your life style when you justify Jeffrey Dahmer's lifestyle.
I have explained multiple times that appeals to nature are invalid. Just because it is natural does not make it a justification. I mean really, what is natural? Watching TV, is not natural; having a 9-5 job, is not natural; eating fast food, is not natural; eating hormone saturated meat from the super market, is not natural; wearing clothes, is not natural; wearing glasses, is not natural; helping anyone outside your tribe (donating), is not natural; the 2 hours or less a week of exercise most people get, is not natural.

The fact is I can go on about this all day long. "Natural" is such an arbitrary stance it isn't worthy in itself of a valid argument. I will return to this thread when I hear a defense for it. I will not continue debating with people who want to sound like a broken record. I have asked for justification on why appeals to nature are worthy. Not to my surprise, I haven't received one.

Continue causing unimaginable suffering to animals, contributing to deforestation and global warming. Ignorance is not an excuse. As I have said before, I have dealt my cards; I am waiting on the rest of you.
I'm not debating what is or isn't natural. Just pointing that we are indeed omnivores. So in that case it's perfectly okay to chock eating meat up to genetics and nature. As for your points at the end. All animals do not endure suffering before they are killed. And we have legislation in place as an attempt to prevent it. Trees are a renewable resource and last I knew we weren't causing mass extinction via reduced habitat. And I don't agree with climatologists who argue for global warming. So in short, I just plain don't give a fuck about your reasons and happen to enjoy eating meat very, very much. So until eating mean causes a problem that I actually have a problem with then I'll keep eating it.

/thread

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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26-04-2012, 09:59 AM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(26-04-2012 05:46 AM)Filox Wrote:  Pih, that is all you want? Look around you and then redefine the word "natural". All those things you just said are natural today. That is because we live in a fucked up word, we are all corrupted by our technology and scientific advances. So, fuck it, "natural" is one of those archaic words, something we have lost and redefined to suit our modern needs.

But worry not, after the WW3 we will all be forced to go back to the nature, this time in a real sense. Then you will have to eat meat, because there would be no choosing what you want to eat, but what you have for eating.

Thanx to human stupidity, it may come sooner than you would expect. Pray to your Gods that I am just being stupid all the time.

Smile
(26-04-2012 08:18 AM)germanyt Wrote:  I'm not debating what is or isn't natural. Just pointing that we are indeed omnivores. So in that case it's perfectly okay to chock eating meat up to genetics and nature. As for your points at the end. All animals do not endure suffering before they are killed. And we have legislation in place as an attempt to prevent it. Trees are a renewable resource and last I knew we weren't causing mass extinction via reduced habitat. And I don't agree with climatologists who argue for global warming. So in short, I just plain don't give a fuck about your reasons and happen to enjoy eating meat very, very much. So until eating mean causes a problem that I actually have a problem with then I'll keep eating it.

/thread
This is addressed to both of you--and a few others who I won't waste time mentioning.

-Can't defend appeals to nature when asked.
-Won't defend appeals to nature when asked.
-But will use appeals to nature despite no justification.


The epitome of being irrational.

I am done with this discussion, because apparently I am the only one partaking in it.

"We Humans are capable of greatness." -Carl Sagan
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26-04-2012, 10:42 AM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(26-04-2012 09:59 AM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  
(26-04-2012 05:46 AM)Filox Wrote:  Pih, that is all you want? Look around you and then redefine the word "natural". All those things you just said are natural today. That is because we live in a fucked up word, we are all corrupted by our technology and scientific advances. So, fuck it, "natural" is one of those archaic words, something we have lost and redefined to suit our modern needs.

But worry not, after the WW3 we will all be forced to go back to the nature, this time in a real sense. Then you will have to eat meat, because there would be no choosing what you want to eat, but what you have for eating.

Thanx to human stupidity, it may come sooner than you would expect. Pray to your Gods that I am just being stupid all the time.

Smile
(26-04-2012 08:18 AM)germanyt Wrote:  I'm not debating what is or isn't natural. Just pointing that we are indeed omnivores. So in that case it's perfectly okay to chock eating meat up to genetics and nature. As for your points at the end. All animals do not endure suffering before they are killed. And we have legislation in place as an attempt to prevent it. Trees are a renewable resource and last I knew we weren't causing mass extinction via reduced habitat. And I don't agree with climatologists who argue for global warming. So in short, I just plain don't give a fuck about your reasons and happen to enjoy eating meat very, very much. So until eating mean causes a problem that I actually have a problem with then I'll keep eating it.

/thread

-Can't defend appeals to nature when asked.
-Won't defend appeals to nature when asked.
-But will use appeals to nature despite no justification.
I don't even know what the fuck you're talking about. If I say "it's in our nature to eat meat", that requires no defense. It's just true. Like I said earlier the evidence is in your teeth. I don't get why you're so hung up on what is and isn't natural. That doesn't matter. If I like doing something that a) isnt' illegal, and b) am not bothered by the consequences you suggest, then why the hell should I stop doing it?

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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26-04-2012, 12:50 PM (This post was last modified: 26-04-2012 01:07 PM by kim.)
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
I started skimming at about page 6 so have no idea what this argument concerning "natural" is all about... and frankly I don't give a shit... it almost turned me off this entire thread.

Being an omnivore gives the human body it's best chance to adapt to change - it's our best way to hedge our evolutionary bets.

I suppose I'm in a unique position; although we no longer do, my family have raised cattle for many decades. As an adult, I've lived in a town for thirty years which hosts two slaughter houses. For the past 20 or so years (off and on at times), I've been primarily a vegetarian.


I live way out in the middle sticks of the US (Kansas) and yet, I manage to buy nearly all my food from three or four different whole foods markets which only carry local, "smaller farm", biodynamic or organically raised, humanely slaughtered, animal products and produce. They also carry national brands which adhere to strict whole foods processing and organic requirements. I pay a teeny bit more for some things, but a teeny bit less for others than I would pay at my local Price Chopper -which btw, is beginning to seriously stock more whole foods and organic products.

I'm a vegetarian. Not entirely life long, but I have been for about 20 years or so -it's just a dietary preference, but I'm not overly strict about it either. I don't eat cow -the flavor has always bored me. I'll have a taste of deer, buffalo, or yummy lamb now and then... a bit of raw fish in my sushi is not at all disturbing as long as it's fresh. I've eaten a lot of kinds of animals and see nothing wrong with choosing to eat whatever is out there for whatever reason including taste - I love the taste of snake but detest alligator. To each his own.

However, I can not abide large corporate, industrially prepared animal products, mainly because of the raising and "processing" that takes place. It is completely unhealthy... and I don't just mean unhealthy for the processed animal, either...

I never did eat much pork -the nitrites and nitrates used in processing and curing are deterrent enough... so... cows...

Today, the amount of antibiotics in industrially farmed cattle is deplorable. Farms that raise for the industrial market are not grazing their cattle, but are almost totally grain feeding them - this fucks up their digestive tract and lowers their immunities; they get sick. Six to eight weeks before slaughter, cattle are pumped with antibiotics not only as a remedy for their lowered immune systems, but also to make them fat for sale and slaughter. If you do eat meat, I would suggest getting it from a local meat locker supplied by small farmers who graze their cattle and who have the sense to keep ill cattle back from sale.

I won't go into hamburger processing... unless you really want to know. I can tell you everything from the production of the filler used to feces splatter... yep, I said it.

The air in the town I've lived in for thirty plus years has finally cleared, after shutting down the slaughter operation of the largest meat processing facility, 3 years ago. The parts per million of fecal matter in the air used to cause severe respiratory and eye issues for most of the towns' people. And though I haven't been able to put my finger on it, there is an extremely high number of people in this town with thyroid related issues. I have a water filter, but I generally don't drink the water here unless I boil it.

I don't eat chicken -again the over use of antibiotics is just freakish, not to mention the variety of growth hormone used. I have a friend who has chickens that are pretty happy and their eggs - I don't eat a lot of them - but they are fantastic!! I suspect he'll eat those chickens after they stop laying. I think the laying life of a hen is around 4 or 5 years // Stark could help me out on that, I'm sure. Thumbsup

I love my yogurts and cheeses! My yogurts are all US produced, as is a lot of the cheese I get, but many of the cheeses are imports, too. Again, the US products I get are from the small batch, biodynamic farms. There are new small farms entering these specialty markets and cottage industries every year; I and many others are very relieved, and we are out here to support that market!!

Stark!! You need to find yourself a local niche market for your dairy products; there's a fortune to be had in those goats!! Smile Give me goat cheese and I'll move mountains!! Every couple of weeks, I drive 70 miles to a town just to get my cheese fix -the variety they have is worth it! I'd raise the damn goats myself, but the neighbors would get all pissy.

Just because it's "small batch"... doesn't mean it's not a nationally distributed brand ... check out one of my favorite yogurts at: http://www.sevenstarsfarm.com -Seven Stars and others have quite a national distribution while using product from as many local, biodynamic, and organic farmers they can find who are willing to TRY to make a difference in nutritional quality. That's really what it comes down to; TRYING.

When people experience real food, they find their quality of life becomes a choice for not only themselves, but for the planet. Choice of nutrition is about responsibility to ourselves and our fellow animals. Humans are animals who need to redefine and reestablish their relationship to the food system.

Drooling
Ok... now I'm hungry. Ooh... just looked in the frig and there's a pile of spinach and other kinds of greens, some yummy goat cheese, some fruits, some olives... I have some nuts and raisins around here and some balsamic vinegar.
I predict a massive salad in my immediate future. Big Grin

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26-04-2012, 01:05 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
(26-04-2012 12:50 PM)kim Wrote:  I predict a massive salad in my immediate future. Big Grin
I recommend frying up some chicken strips, tossing them in some parmesan garlic sauce, then eating the salad.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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26-04-2012, 01:19 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
Kim,

Laying hens live varied life spans depending on breed. "Brown layers" are hybrids that lay tons of eggs for a couple years, then burn out. In fact most people don't keep them after the two year mark because they usually stop laying all together. Dual purpose breeds are better IMO. They lay the same number of eggs over a lifetime, but spread that out over three or four years. It's easier on the birds, and when they are done laying, provide better meat. Also they are better foragers, which means a diet rich in bugs, seeds, and vegetation. The result is WAY better eggs. With a good flock rotation and husbandry, they will provide just as much food at a lower cost (they will completely ignore purchased chicken feed in favor of forage) and the quality is better. That said, I have some brown layers that do great. I took them in from a farmer that claimed they were done laying and worthless for meat, so he was just going to put them down and toss them. The old girls STILL give me a couple eggs each a week, and they are practically pets, so they will live until they die of natural causes on my farm.

As for goats milk.....hands off lady! Lol. My goats are not here yet, but we get our milk from a neighbor and make our own cheese and yogurt. Can never make enough for my family though, so selling it just isn't an option.

Since you have access to good eggs and cheese, you really gotta try my eg bake recipe. Think I put it in the recipe thread. You'll love it.

So many cats, so few good recipes.
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26-04-2012, 01:54 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
I think the Burger King thing is not only super positive (although it's too bad it'll take them another 5 years) but it's also telling. If caged animals are so bad that fucking Burger fucking King won't fucking touch them any more, you know that shit's fucked up. Hell, they recently admitted to using pink slime. Fuck, they'd make a burger out of an old boot if they could get away with it! When the giant faceless abomination corporation says, "we aren't gonna do that because it'll make us look bad," you know whatever that thing is has to stop. Like if someone offered Dahmer some Soilent Green and he was like, "I don't support that sort of inhumanity. I have limits!"

Oh, that, and Kim and Stark are my new favourite people Big Grin

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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26-04-2012, 02:19 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
New??? WTF dude? I thought I was always your favorite person??

So many cats, so few good recipes.
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26-04-2012, 03:36 PM
RE: Is veganism at the "moral baseline"?
I think veggies secretly eat bacon in the closet... No one can resist the smell of bacon!!

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