Islam - The Biggest Enemy Of All
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19-11-2014, 04:30 AM
RE: Islam - The Biggest Enemy Of All
(19-11-2014 04:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  There are many moderate Muslims and they are finding a voice. See this guy for example.

I personally have known many Muslim people who were and are really nice, and ja, equally against all the religious wars crap.

I think of them in much the same way as I see Christians - crazy (I have sat through some hair raising Christian sermons here in Africa), but... ja, still, they're just people, just as nuts as the rest of us.

Islam is not something that needs stopping IMO. You get extremism where people see injustice. The world is going right to shit because of competition for resources and all sorts of stuff, but to me extremism is a *symptom* and not a cause.

Islam has already *been* light-years ahead of other religions like Christianity. It has now regressed, but in the far past Arabic civilization was the most advanced in the world, and the most inclusive and cosmopolitan. They *can* be tolerant, even if their magic book says different - Christians have equally disgusting crap in the Bible.

Hmpf. Guess I'm a useful idiot huh? Tongue

I agree but majority of the Muslims that call themselves moderate are only moderate because they hold passive-aggressive beliefs. E.g at Leeds Grand Mosque I attended a seminar of "moderate" muslims claiming that they aren't extremists, extremists physically force women to wear veils etc but we just "warn them of hellfire" It's sickening.

You musn't discredit Arabic and middle eastern civilisation by saying Islam was at fault for them being so advanced. Islam claims ants can speak and Muhammad had a flying horse. (there are tonnes of other claims like such). Their civlisation was only cosmpolitan because of the conquering though, and tolerant because kaffir have to pay special taxes to live in peace.

I hate all religions equally, 70 years ago I'd be saying this about the Catholic church, but times change and so do threats to peace.

Don't worry, the German citizens who stood up for and elected Hitler were useful idiots too Tongue

Saints live in flames; wise men, next to them.
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19-11-2014, 04:32 AM
RE: Islam - The Biggest Enemy Of All
(18-11-2014 07:59 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You want something to be scared of something. Be fucking scared of the physicists, engineers, AI computer scientists, and roboticists. Those fuckers are like Vishnu scary.

3 out of 4! I'm doing well. But physicists as well? Damn it! And here was me thinking of moving into Biology to manipulate wet-ware.
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19-11-2014, 04:43 AM
RE: Islam - The Biggest Enemy Of All
(19-11-2014 04:30 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  Don't worry, the German citizens who stood up for and elected Hitler were useful idiots too Tongue

Don't worry, the British citizens who stand up for and elect UKIP members are useful idiots too. Exactly the same process is going on at the moment in the UK.
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19-11-2014, 05:19 AM
RE: Islam - The Biggest Enemy Of All
(19-11-2014 04:30 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  I agree but majority of the Muslims that call themselves moderate are only moderate because they hold passive-aggressive beliefs. E.g at Leeds Grand Mosque I attended a seminar of "moderate" muslims claiming that they aren't extremists, extremists physically force women to wear veils etc but we just "warn them of hellfire" It's sickening.
... So would ya rather be warned of hellfire, or forced? Might be sickening to you, but it *is* a positive change. Change happens slowly... In another few years they themselves might find the thought of threatening someone with hellfire sickening.

Quote:You musn't discredit Arabic and middle eastern civilisation by saying Islam was at fault for them being so advanced. Islam claims ants can speak and Muhammad had a flying horse. (there are tonnes of other claims like such). Their civlisation was only cosmpolitan because of the conquering though, and tolerant because kaffir have to pay special taxes to live in peace.
Point is, whether in spite of or whatever, Muslims at one time found a way to be tolerant within the strictures of their religion. It can be done again. And is, just not so much in the Middle East.

Quote:Don't worry, the German citizens who stood up for and elected Hitler were useful idiots too Tongue
What are you implying? 'Cos it seems like a pretty loaded sentence there.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-11-2014, 06:17 AM
RE: Islam - The Biggest Enemy Of All
(19-11-2014 05:19 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(19-11-2014 04:30 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  I agree but majority of the Muslims that call themselves moderate are only moderate because they hold passive-aggressive beliefs. E.g at Leeds Grand Mosque I attended a seminar of "moderate" muslims claiming that they aren't extremists, extremists physically force women to wear veils etc but we just "warn them of hellfire" It's sickening.
... So would ya rather be warned of hellfire, or forced? Might be sickening to you, but it *is* a positive change. Change happens slowly... In another few years they themselves might find the thought of threatening someone with hellfire sickening.

Quote:You musn't discredit Arabic and middle eastern civilisation by saying Islam was at fault for them being so advanced. Islam claims ants can speak and Muhammad had a flying horse. (there are tonnes of other claims like such). Their civlisation was only cosmpolitan because of the conquering though, and tolerant because kaffir have to pay special taxes to live in peace.
Point is, whether in spite of or whatever, Muslims at one time found a way to be tolerant within the strictures of their religion. It can be done again. And is, just not so much in the Middle East.

Quote:Don't worry, the German citizens who stood up for and elected Hitler were useful idiots too Tongue
What are you implying? 'Cos it seems like a pretty loaded sentence there.
The problem is that they only warn of hell fire and say the woman will burn in hell if they don't cover themselves up because they can't physically do anything about it in these countries. If the law didn't prevent them do you think they would be so passive? They would be in 50 years time ish like you said when the religion has finished its death throes, but I don't think they would now.

& So the point doesn't care whether or not the circumstances of tolerance are evil? just that they are tolerant? e.g "We will be tolerant of your religion, as long as you pay special tax only kuffir have to pay for not being muslims".

& I was making a vague joke.. german citizens were forgiven for not realising what they were doing.. as will "useful idiots".

Have you heard of the Quilliam foundation?

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19-11-2014, 06:18 AM
RE: Islam - The Biggest Enemy Of All
(19-11-2014 04:43 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(19-11-2014 04:30 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  Don't worry, the German citizens who stood up for and elected Hitler were useful idiots too Tongue

Don't worry, the British citizens who stand up for and elect UKIP members are useful idiots too. Exactly the same process is going on at the moment in the UK.

I agree. UKIP Have one policy I agree with, leaving Europe. But everything else they stand for is backwards and just plain stupid. There's no political party right now I think I could vote for :/

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19-11-2014, 06:36 AM
RE: Islam - The Biggest Enemy Of All
(19-11-2014 06:17 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  The problem is that they only warn of hell fire and say the woman will burn in hell if they don't cover themselves up because they can't physically do anything about it in these countries. If the law didn't prevent them do you think they would be so passive? They would be in 50 years time ish like you said when the religion has finished its death throes, but I don't think they would now.
The post facto justification, where they pretend that they follow the law because they are interpreting scripture "correctly" is in fact a good thing - it means that the religion as a whole becomes softer. Eventually it will whither and die... but you can't *force* it to do so.

Quote:& So the point doesn't care whether or not the circumstances of tolerance are evil? just that they are tolerant? e.g "We will be tolerant of your religion, as long as you pay special tax only kuffir have to pay for not being muslims".
Don't be special kid, where did I say shit about taxes? And yeah, things back in the middle ages were different. Even in Europe at that time you could be killed for heresy. So when I say tolerant I mean, they could get on, they could find scriptural justification for it, and they didn't automatically hate you for being of a different religion. Not that I think Muslims nowadays do, but definitely from what I can see the extremist crowd do.

Quote:& I was making a vague joke.. german citizens were forgiven for not realising what they were doing.. as will "useful idiots".
Well... you see things your way, I'll see them mine.

Quote:Have you heard of the Quilliam foundation?
Now I have. Seems legit. Good eggs.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-11-2014, 08:03 AM
RE: Islam - The Biggest Enemy Of All
(19-11-2014 06:36 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(19-11-2014 06:17 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  The problem is that they only warn of hell fire and say the woman will burn in hell if they don't cover themselves up because they can't physically do anything about it in these countries. If the law didn't prevent them do you think they would be so passive? They would be in 50 years time ish like you said when the religion has finished its death throes, but I don't think they would now.
The post facto justification, where they pretend that they follow the law because they are interpreting scripture "correctly" is in fact a good thing - it means that the religion as a whole becomes softer. Eventually it will whither and die... but you can't *force* it to do so.

Quote:& So the point doesn't care whether or not the circumstances of tolerance are evil? just that they are tolerant? e.g "We will be tolerant of your religion, as long as you pay special tax only kuffir have to pay for not being muslims".
Don't be special kid, where did I say shit about taxes? And yeah, things back in the middle ages were different. Even in Europe at that time you could be killed for heresy. So when I say tolerant I mean, they could get on, they could find scriptural justification for it, and they didn't automatically hate you for being of a different religion. Not that I think Muslims nowadays do, but definitely from what I can see the extremist crowd do.

Quote:& I was making a vague joke.. german citizens were forgiven for not realising what they were doing.. as will "useful idiots".
Well... you see things your way, I'll see them mine.

Quote:Have you heard of the Quilliam foundation?
Now I have. Seems legit. Good eggs.

I think you have a good point on your first point.

I still disagree however that Islam has ever been tolerant out of goodness, Islam had 15 years of peace but since then it has been practicing hate of all peoples. That's in the scripture too.
Although, I have read things about Ṣalāḥ ad-Dīn Yūsuf ibn Ayyūb being an outstanding human being in terms of compassion. I would argue that is just him being human rather than muslim though Tongue

Yep they are but unfortunately the majority of muslims refuse to call members and the founder Maajid Nawaz (I think he was the founder) muslims, because they refute the absolutism of Islam. There has been a fatwah called on him lol.

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19-11-2014, 08:11 AM
RE: Islam - The Biggest Enemy Of All
(19-11-2014 04:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  There are many moderate Muslims and they are finding a voice. See this guy for example.

I personally have known many Muslim people who were and are really nice, and ja, equally against all the religious wars crap.

I think of them in much the same way as I see Christians - crazy (I have sat through some hair raising Christian sermons here in Africa), but... ja, still, they're just people, just as nuts as the rest of us.

Islam is not something that needs stopping IMO. You get extremism where people see injustice. The world is going right to shit because of competition for resources and all sorts of stuff, but to me extremism is a *symptom* and not a cause.

Islam has already *been* light-years ahead of other religions like Christianity. It has now regressed, but in the far past Arabic civilization was the most advanced in the world, and the most inclusive and cosmopolitan. They *can* be tolerant, even if their magic book says different - Christians have equally disgusting crap in the Bible.

Hmpf. Guess I'm a useful idiot huh? Tongue

I agree. The muslins I know personally are really nice people, not much different from other religious people. I have heard them talk against things like what is going on now.

Personally I see religion as more of a justification that a cause. Look at the crappy place these people are coming from. I suspect their situation is the driver for the violence. It is easy to do bad things when god is on your side.
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19-11-2014, 09:43 AM
RE: Islam - The Biggest Enemy Of All
(19-11-2014 08:11 AM)wazzel Wrote:  
(19-11-2014 04:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  There are many moderate Muslims and they are finding a voice. See this guy for example.

I personally have known many Muslim people who were and are really nice, and ja, equally against all the religious wars crap.

I think of them in much the same way as I see Christians - crazy (I have sat through some hair raising Christian sermons here in Africa), but... ja, still, they're just people, just as nuts as the rest of us.

Islam is not something that needs stopping IMO. You get extremism where people see injustice. The world is going right to shit because of competition for resources and all sorts of stuff, but to me extremism is a *symptom* and not a cause.

Islam has already *been* light-years ahead of other religions like Christianity. It has now regressed, but in the far past Arabic civilization was the most advanced in the world, and the most inclusive and cosmopolitan. They *can* be tolerant, even if their magic book says different - Christians have equally disgusting crap in the Bible.

Hmpf. Guess I'm a useful idiot huh? Tongue

I agree. The muslins I know personally are really nice people, not much different from other religious people. I have heard them talk against things like what is going on now.

Personally I see religion as more of a justification that a cause. Look at the crappy place these people are coming from. I suspect their situation is the driver for the violence. It is easy to do bad things when god is on your side.

I know some nice Christians and Hindus - being nice doesn't mean they aren't delusional.
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