Islam: The Religion of Peace and Tolerance
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21-09-2010, 07:41 AM
RE: Islam: The Religion of Peace and Tolerance
And atheism IS all about patience and tolerance? (Don't bother starting to define atheism for me, I know what it means, I'm just making a point). I read this thread, and I'm also inclined to ask, "what the fuck?" What happened to YOUR patience and tolerance? Sorry if I'm being harsh here, but this thread reads like some sort of conversation within a hate group. Sounds VERY bigoted to me. Maybe some of you should take a breath, go back and read the thread in it's entirety (with the open, thinking mind we all claim to have), and see for yourselves.
Most of us, including myself, dislike many things about religion, and in some cases, religion in it's entirety. But c'mon people!! This is quickly going beyond a discussion about religion (if it ever was to begin with) and turning into a bunch of people hating another bunch of people. We all know what that's called.

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21-09-2010, 08:04 AM
 
RE: Islam: The Religion of Peace and Tolerance
Strictly speaking, atheism says nothing about patience and tolerance ... sorry, Stark Raving, but while we can hope that most atheists are in favor of tolerance, there's no reason to believe that being an atheist requires that.

However, I don't see what you're seeing in this thread - perhaps that's just me, but what I see happening here is a general distrust of the three major monotheistic religions (including islam) in terms of being a religion of "peace and tolerance". I share in that reaction. They all have the same core, within their sacred texts, of intolerance to departures from their form of worship, to the point of slaughtering their opposition with their god's banners waving proudly at the forefront of the carnage.
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21-09-2010, 08:18 AM
RE: Islam: The Religion of Peace and Tolerance
(21-09-2010 08:04 AM)2buckchuck Wrote:  Strictly speaking, atheism says nothing about patience and tolerance ... sorry, Stark Raving, but while we can hope that most atheists are in favor of tolerance, there's no reason to believe that being an atheist requires that.

It's baffling how selectively one reads when they feel challenged. I've read things written by you before man. I KNOW you aren't that naive. Read my statement again. I never suggested any requirements. I even said that it was unnescessary to start defining atheism for me. My point was made clear. Choose to read it with a clear mind and you'll see that.

As for the rest...don't you think that once a points been made (one I agree with, by the way) that to continue on about how loathsome muslims/christians/jews/atheists/accountants are, is not only redundant, but just hateful??? Read the posts. Most are basically saying, "yea! I hate em too!" I am appalled by the tone of the thread, not the individuals themselves. But to contribute to this bashing session DOES mean that one would shoulder some of that. You are right when you say that we, as atheists, don't require tolerance. I am very intolerant of unproductive hate.

To be honest, I hope this all just ends here, but on the other hand, perhaps it's at least becoming something worth continuing.

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22-09-2010, 12:21 AM
RE: Islam: The Religion of Peace and Tolerance
(21-09-2010 07:41 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  And atheism IS all about patience and tolerance? (Don't bother starting to define atheism for me, I know what it means, I'm just making a point). I read this thread, and I'm also inclined to ask, "what the fuck?" What happened to YOUR patience and tolerance?

A very good point sir.
To the question of what happened to my patience and tolerance, the answer is that I put it elsewhere. I reserve it for the discussions we are having about abortion, about feminism, and so on.
I have no patience and no tolerance for the religious. When I consider the knowledge I have of the three large monotheisms, they fill me with the same feelings i feel when I thing about racists and the Neo-Nazi movement.
Considering their actual merits the Nazis could not hold a candle to religion when it comes to imposing suffering on humanity.
Where do you suggest I look for inspiration for this patience and tolerance you speak of? Because I can find none.

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22-09-2010, 05:13 AM
 
RE: Islam: The Religion of Peace and Tolerance
(21-09-2010 08:18 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  
(21-09-2010 08:04 AM)2buckchuck Wrote:  Strictly speaking, atheism says nothing about patience and tolerance ... sorry, Stark Raving, but while we can hope that most atheists are in favor of tolerance, there's no reason to believe that being an atheist requires that.

It's baffling how selectively one reads when they feel challenged. I've read things written by you before man. I KNOW you aren't that naive. Read my statement again. I never suggested any requirements. I even said that it was unnescessary to start defining atheism for me. My point was made clear. Choose to read it with a clear mind and you'll see that.

Your statement "And atheism IS all about patience and tolerance?" seems to suggest such a 'requirement'. What was your intended meaning? The medium of a message board is fraught with communications difficulties, as we re-discover routinely. I don't think a 'clear mind' can be defined as one that automatically understands precisely what you're trying to say - however, you seem to be implying that I can only have a clear mind if I do interpret your words as you intended. Perhaps my mind is muddy, indeed, but I think others could interpret your words differently from your intentions and still be 'clear' thinkers.

(21-09-2010 08:18 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  As for the rest...don't you think that once a points been made (one I agree with, by the way) that to continue on about how loathsome muslims/christians/jews/atheists/accountants are, is not only redundant, but just hateful??? Read the posts. Most are basically saying, "yea! I hate em too!" I am appalled by the tone of the thread, not the individuals themselves. But to contribute to this bashing session DOES mean that one would shoulder some of that. You are right when you say that we, as atheists, don't require tolerance. I am very intolerant of unproductive hate.

To be honest, I hope this all just ends here, but on the other hand, perhaps it's at least becoming something worth continuing.
OK - so you're intolerant when it comes to 'hating' and 'bashing' - me, too, actually - I'm also intolerant of religious intolerance for other religions and atheism (reminds me of a Dylan song).

Are you saying that my intolerance for intolerance is fundamentally less justifiable than your intolerance of hating/bashing? I just don't see this as a 'bashing session' - you do, evidently. I saw the thread as one where several of us were simply agreeing that the major monotheistic religions are characterized by violence and intolerance, not peace and toleration. I didn't see that as hating or bashing people, but perhaps I'm indeed naive and a muddy thinker.
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22-09-2010, 05:22 AM
RE: Islam: The Religion of Peace and Tolerance
(21-09-2010 07:41 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  This is quickly going beyond a discussion about religion (if it ever was to begin with) and turning into a bunch of people hating another bunch of people. We all know what that's called.
I can't speak for others, but I myself hate the religion, not the people. I don't like Christianity, but I have friends who are Christian and I am fine with them being Christian. I don't like Judaism, but I love my family regardless of the fact that they practice Judaism. I can't say I know any Muslims, but I would, without hesitation, shake one's hand even though I don't like his religion. I can't hate someone for being misinformed (or what I feel is misinformed), but I can hate the "misinformer".

I don't think anyone here hates anyone (unless that hate was warranted by acts of discrimination, violence, etc.), just the belief system they hold.

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22-09-2010, 05:27 AM
 
RE: Islam: The Religion of Peace and Tolerance
I agree with jkshrout's interpretation of the thread ... I also have theist friends who include believers in all of the major montheistic religions. I can have little or no tolerance for the religions and still like these people.
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22-09-2010, 06:24 AM
 
RE: Islam: The Religion of Peace and Tolerance
I think that the real problem with this thread was the way it started. It started with a complaint that was only a few words long. There was no news source, or anything to debate. I believe that if the thread had started with an article quoting someone as saying Islam was about peace and tolerance, we would all be sitting around having the same discussion without Stark Raving having been offended.

The first post could be interpreted as an attack, and everything else was a discussion, or an attempt at discussion. There was no question in the original post, nor was there any attempt at discussion of a specific point or event in the OP. Simply a WTF comment. Therefore, there was nothing really to debate.

I personally believe that Cetaceaphile posted without thinking about how the 'discussion' would evolve. I don't think that anyone's initial intent was to bash Islam over another religion. We all understand that the problem here is structured belief, not the name of the structure.

Additionally, I believe that we all also understand that the only real problem with Islam over any other monotheistic religion (the polytheistic concept of Christianity included) is the layout of the Koran and the pillars of Sharia law, but not the majority of the believers (extremists on any side not included).

I would like to see more initial posts that foster intelligent discussion, and have a point to make that is clear, so that we can avoid sticky threads like this one.

Again, I don't believe that bashing was anyone's original point on this thread, but I can see where Stark Raving is coming from. I think that the first post set the tone for Stark Raving and he read the thread with a belief that bashing was the intent when none of us meant that.
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22-09-2010, 06:49 AM
RE: Islam: The Religion of Peace and Tolerance
Well I suppose I owe an explaination of what it is about the thread (beyond the first post, though I think soldieringon is right that the first post did set the tone for me) that bothers me. When I go back and read the first page, all I see is everyone basically saying, "ya. religion sucks". There's no reasons given that haven't already been discussed to death in the last two weeks worth of threads, let alone since the inception of this forum. More importantly, there's no solutions offered. It's not an exchange of ideas, but simply an excuse for everyone to say that they hate religion.

2buck > I do think I owe you an apology. I don't think you are a muddy thinker. When I explained that I didn't mean to imply any "atheist requirements" I was trying to explain that I intended a tone of sarcasm with the statement. (It's why I followed up with saying no need for definitions of atheism). I was unclear, so it was me being muddy, not you. For that I apologise.

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22-09-2010, 05:13 PM
RE: Islam: The Religion of Peace and Tolerance
(20-09-2010 08:03 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Christians and Jews don't live like they're in the 1200s though. With the exception of Israel and Ireland.

Have you ever visited Israel? seen pictures even? 1200s isn't a year which can describe my country. The fact that there are people here who act like they live in the 1200, doesn't mean the country itself acts like it's living in the 1200s.
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