Islam and western values/society
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26-02-2017, 02:00 PM
RE: Islam and western values/society
(26-02-2017 01:28 PM)abaris Wrote:  A lot of links you're posting.

What Islam are we talking about exactly? Shia or Sunni? What particular denomination? What culture? Bosnia, Turkey, Indonesia? The Middle East? What Middle Eastern country exactly? Are you aware that there's an abundance of different cultures within majority Muslim countries?

Or could it be that there's a broad brush applied somewhere? And where exactly features the AFD in there?

The links are the sources, so that if anyone is uncertain about something that I wrote he can read it for himself and it also shows that I actually care about the topic and spent some time researching it.

Since the majority of Muslims are Sunni we're talking about Sunni Muslims.

We're talking about the Islamic culture (I cited sources for Turkey and Saudi Arabia as well as Iran or Afghanistan).

Since It's about the Islamic culture it's a bit broad, but you can read further about specific countries in the sources (about 38 countries I believe)

I do not support the AFD, and I will not vote for them because:
Their education plans are horrible.
They want to prohibit abortions.
They want to shoot immigrants at the German border...
They pretty much want to erase the nazi time from the curriculum.
They want to force theatres and museums to promote Germany's culture more positively.
They want less sex education in schools and want them to stop depicting families as something different than Mother/Father/2-3 Children.
They want to force people that require social support to do shit work even if they are way overqualified.
They do not support clean energy.
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26-02-2017, 02:03 PM
RE: Islam and western values/society
(26-02-2017 02:00 PM)NHBERDUG ZDUULRU Wrote:  Since It's about the Islamic culture it's a bit broad, but you can read further about specific countries in the sources (about 38 countries I believe)

Broad doesn't cut it. Unless you think every christian or jew holds the same values. Culture is everything. With every analysis.

And if you were to think every christian or jew holds the same values, there's nothing to debate anyway.
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26-02-2017, 02:05 PM
RE: Islam and western values/society
(26-02-2017 01:05 PM)NHBERDUG ZDUULRU Wrote:  
(26-02-2017 01:01 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  What are "western values" if i may ask?
Where does the "west" stop and the "east" begin?
What about the "north" and the "south"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

Quote:Western culture is characterized by a host of artistic, philosophic, literary, and legal themes and traditions; the heritage of Greek, Roman, Jewish, Celtic, Slavic, and other ethnic and linguistic groups, as well as Christianity including the Roman Catholic Church,and the Orthodox Church
bolding mine.

Quote:.....is a term used very broadly
Can you be a bit more specific? Like in give a description yourself instead of linking a wiki article? Or are you completely in agreement with the article? Do you think, for example, the Slavic culture is part of Western culture? Do you think the Jewish culture is part of the Western culture? Do you support Judaism as part of the Jewish culture? Do you support the catholic church (as well as orthodox church) as part of the Western culture?

If not, please give me your definition of "western values/culture".

Quote:I hope that this makes clear that Islamic culture is not tolerant, does not fit with western values and should not be integrated into western societies.
How, by what means, should, in your opinion, the integration of islamic culture be avoided? Do, in your opinion, those 4 topics (terrorism, sexism, homophobia and religious intolerance) sufficiently define islamic culture?

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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26-02-2017, 05:56 PM
RE: Islam and western values/society
Quote:Do you think, for example, the Slavic culture is part of Western culture?

"The highly developed industrialized nations are often considered the westernized countries."I do not think that the Slavic culture is a part of Western culture.

Quote:Do you think the Jewish culture is part of the Western culture?

I do not think that the Jewish culture has a lot of influence on the western culture.


Quote:Do you support Judaism as part of the Jewish culture?

I do not support any religion.

Quote:If not, please give me your definition of "western values/culture".

1. Human rights
2. Democracy

Quote:How, by what means, should, in your opinion, the integration of Islamic culture be avoided?

Integration courses.
Work programs.
Language courses.
Change of labor laws.
Preventing ghettoes.

Quote:Do, in your opinion, those four topics (terrorism, sexism, homophobia and religious intolerance) sufficiently define Islamic culture?

"Islamic culture generally includes all the practices which have developed around the religion of Islam." I do not think that it defines Islamic culture, but I do believe that it is a reason to reject Islamic culture.
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26-02-2017, 06:01 PM
RE: Islam and western values/society
(26-02-2017 05:56 PM)NHBERDUG ZDUULRU Wrote:  "Islamic culture generally includes all the practices which have developed around the religion of Islam." I do not think that it defines Islamic culture, but I do believe that it is a reason to reject Islamic culture.

Which obviously doesn't come from you, since it's in quotation marks and is bullshit anyway. It's the same as if saying, Americans hold the same values as Italians or the English. They all are christians by definition. If you don't make a distinction between muslims, why don't you apply the same broad brush to so called christian nations?

You should educate yourself on the thousands of different muslims denominations and the cultures associated with Islam. As I said, a broad statement won't cut it. You wouldn't even notice a Bosnian if you met him on the streets. It's still a muslim.
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27-02-2017, 01:00 AM
RE: Islam and western values/society
(26-02-2017 09:10 AM)NHBERDUG ZDUULRU Wrote:  [5] According to the Quran, homosexuality is to be punished with death: Quran 26: 165-66 and [6] 7: 80-4.
Doesn't the Bible also state that homo's are to be put to death?
Aren't the two myths related, Like one is a derivative of the other?, they both being derivatives of Judaism?


(26-02-2017 09:10 AM)NHBERDUG ZDUULRU Wrote:  [11] 89% of Muslims in countries which have large Muslim minorities or majorities are homophobic.
Aren't many Christians against same sex marriage, gay adoption, gay teachers etc?
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27-02-2017, 02:05 AM
RE: Islam and western values/society
(26-02-2017 05:56 PM)NHBERDUG ZDUULRU Wrote:  
Quote:If not, please give me your definition of "western values/culture".

1. Human rights
2. Democracy
I don't think these things are synonymous with western values or culture at all.
The Western world does not hold ownership of the idea of human rights, or even of democracy.

I actually despise the idea of using the terms of "western values" or even of "western medicine". It creates an adversary relationship, us vs them. Those that aren't "western" will simply want to avoid it out of principle. But in fact we can support and promote human rights and evidence based medicine as non nationalistic, non cultural principles, ones that do not threaten national or cultural identity in the least.

With regards to "western medicine" it is an international advancement towards improved evidence based medicine, it isn't "western" at all.

With regards to Human rights, this again is an internationally defined term. Look up UN Human Rights. 48 countries signed that, most of them wouldn't be considered "Western" countries.

I think this elitist bullshit is just plain tiresome. Anyone espousing this "Western values" stuff is a person drawing an us/them line in the sand. It does not lead to peace but war, for you, "they" are the enemy, "they" must be either changed to your way or they are seen as the enemy.
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27-02-2017, 03:22 AM
RE: Islam and western values/society
Human rights and democracy are worthy values. Are you aware of human rights abuses in "Western" nations? There are plenty. Are you aware that unless she's changed her tune, UK prime minister Theresa May wants to withdraw from the European convention on human rights? Go look up the European convention on human rights and tell me which one she wants to withdraw from? I'll give you a hint. It's the one which says you can't send a refugee back into a situation where you're pretty damn sure they'll be killed.

Western nations might have a rather admirable *history* of coming up with bright ideas like human rights etc, but they're sure not shining lights in this regard currently. In fact most of them owe their current wealth and success to previous policies that explicitly ignored people's human rights as long as they lived far enough away that nobody gave a shit about them.

Why do people from Muslim countries perpetrate acts of terrorism? You know that up until very recently terrorism wasn't a thing? But now suddenly everyone's terrified of the Muslims next door when we've lived with them for centuries? Maybe bombing the Middle East and Afghanistan to fucking shit has something to do with it? And now when there's a stream of refugees you want to tell them they can lose their religion too if they want your charity?

Fuck this bullshit.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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27-02-2017, 04:09 AM (This post was last modified: 27-02-2017 04:20 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Islam and western values/society
You know that up until very recently terrorism wasn't a thing?


Depend on how you view recently I suppose. Remember the Rote Armee Fraktion or IRA? Or Narodnaya Vola further back?

And if you mean Islamic terrorism then some would say that it date all way back to Hashshashins, or much more recently to Muslim Brotherhood started in 1928.

It seems that Muslims are new boogeyman. It's nothing surprising though, fear is good pretext for gov to made some authoritarian moves and then claim that it is done for good of the populace. But who could be used as boogeyman? USSR felt so it can't be reds, Jews are now off-limits (even if anti-semitism still exist), Masons or Illuminati's are for cranks. Muslims are good choice I suppose.

This info bears repeating I think:

Based on our review of the approximately 2,400 terrorist attacks on U.S. soil contained within the START database, we determined that approximately 60 were carried out by Muslims.

In other words, approximately 2.5% of all terrorist attacks on U.S. soil between 1970 and 2012 were carried out by Muslims.
.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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27-02-2017, 04:17 AM
RE: Islam and western values/society
(27-02-2017 04:09 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  But who could be used as boogeyman? USSR felt so it can't be reds, Jews are now off-limits (even if anti-semitism still exist), Masons or Illuminati's are for cranks. Muslims are good choice I suppose.

If Buddhists were sitting atop a majority of the world's oil reserves, it would most likely be them. Dodgy

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