Islam and western values/society
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26-02-2017, 09:10 AM (This post was last modified: 27-02-2017 07:18 AM by NHBERDUG ZDUULRU.)
Islam and western values/society
This is an edited rough translation of what I wrote in a german forum. It was deleted about 8h after I posted it. What do you guys think about this? Which parts could be improved and which are incorrect? It would also be awesome if you could correct the grammar and spelling mistakes since I'm not a native.

An ample minority of Muslims affirm Islamic terror:
[1] 28% of the Muslim world population confessed that suicide bombings are occasionally, sometimes, or often justified.
[2] 25% of the British Muslims affirm that the 7/7 attacks were justified.
[3] 67% of British Muslims would not tip-off the police if they believed that somebody close to them had become involved with terrorist sympathizers.
[4] 42% of Turkish Muslims believe that Muslims were the true victims of the Charlie Hebdo attack, and 20% remarked that the Charlie Hebdo employees deserved death for depicting Muhammad.

Islam is homophobic and a large majority of Muslims are homophobic:
[5] According to the Quran, homosexuality is to be punished with death: Quran 26: 165-66 and [6] 7: 80-4.
[7] The only countries where there is still the death penalty for homosexuality are Islamic countries.
[8] According to Sharia, homosexuality is to be punished with death.
[9] According to the hadiths, homosexuality is to be punished with death: Abu Dawud 4462, [10] Sunan Ibn Majah 3: 20: 2561.
[11] 89% of Muslims in countries which have large Muslim minorities or majorities believe that homosexuality is immoral.

Islam is sexist and a great majority of Muslims are sexist:
[12] 86% of Muslims in countries that have large Muslim minorities or majorities believe that women must always obey the commands of their husbands.
[13] 27% of Muslims in countries that have large Muslim minorities or majorities have said that women should not be allowed to decide if they wear the veil.
[14] Islamic countries have the worst women's rights on earth (Yemen is ranked 140 of 140, Pakistan 139, Saudi Arabia 137, Iran 135, Egypt 128, Turkey 126, United Arab Emirates 120).

Islam is against religious freedom and a lot of Muslims are intolerant towards other religions:
[15]: According to the hadiths, apostates are to be punished with death: Sahih al-Bukhari 4: 52: 260, [16] Sunan Ibn Majah 3: 20: 2535, Sahih al-Bukhari 6922.
[18]: 40% of Muslims in countries that have large Muslim minorities or majorities support the death penalty for apostasy.
[19]: 95% of Muslims in countries that have large Muslim minorities or majorities said that all or most of their friends are Muslims.
[20] According to the Qur'an, apostates will be greatly punished: Quran 9:66, [21] Quran 16: 106, [22] Quran 4:89.

I hope that this makes clear that Islamic culture is not tolerant and does not respect human rights.

Sources:

[1]: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-w...ety-app-a/
[2]: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/many-british...lam-first/
[3]: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/ar...730825.ece
[4]: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/metropoll-42-tu...ck-1486355
[5]: https://quran.com/26/165-166
[6]: https://quran.com/7/80-84
[7]: http://old.ilga.org/Statehomophobia/ILGA...a_2015.pdf
[8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam
[9]: https://sunnah.com/abudawud/40/112
[10]: https://sunnah.com/urn/1268780
[11]: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-w...-morality/
[12]: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-w...n-society/
[13]: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-w...n-society/
[14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Gender_Gap_Report
[15]: https://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/226
[16]: https://sunnah.com/urn/1268520
[17]: https://sunnah.com/bukhari/88/5
[18]: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-w...ut-sharia/
[19]: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-w...ety-app-a/
[20]: https://quran.com/9/66
[21]: https://quran.com/16/106
[22]: https://quran.com/4/89


Thank you for reading this.
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26-02-2017, 09:36 AM (This post was last modified: 26-02-2017 10:46 AM by Full Circle.)
RE: Islam and western values/society
Welcome to TTA.

It’s refreshing to see someone taking on Islam. It happens rarely here since most of us are ex-Christians and what we hate know most.

I think citing sources is a plus in any discussion. Thumbsup

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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26-02-2017, 09:57 AM (This post was last modified: 26-02-2017 10:04 AM by cactus.)
RE: Islam and western values/society
(26-02-2017 09:10 AM)NHBERDUG ZDUULRU Wrote:  [11] 89% of Muslims in countries which have large Muslim minorities or majorities are homophobic.

That one is poorly worded. They answered "no" to the question "Is homosexual behavior moral," which is still an extremely vague question for them to answer. The word homosexual can refer sexual attraction, sexual acts, romantic attraction, romantic acts, obtaining a legal document of marriage, crossdressing, kissing your platonic partner, sleeping in the same bed, etc etc etc etc, depending on who you ask. The word "homophobic" is even more poorly defined. It is not a word that I would personally use to describe anyone. I would reserve the word "phobia" for diagnosable anxiety disorders.

If we came from dust, then why is there still dust?
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26-02-2017, 10:06 AM
RE: Islam and western values/society
(26-02-2017 09:57 AM)cactus Wrote:  
(26-02-2017 09:10 AM)NHBERDUG ZDUULRU Wrote:  [11] 89% of Muslims in countries which have large Muslim minorities or majorities are homophobic.

That one is poorly worded. They answered "no" to the question "Is homosexual behavior moral," which is still an extremely vague question for them to answer. The word homosexual can refer sexual attraction, sexual acts, romantic attraction, romantic acts, obtaining a legal document of marriage, crossdressing, kissing your platonic partner, sleeping in the same bed, etc etc etc etc, depending on who you ask. The word "homophobic" is even more poorly defined. It is not a word that I would personally use to describe anyone.

Homophobia is the dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people. If they think that homosexual behaviour is not moral then they are prejudiced towards homosexuals.
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26-02-2017, 10:17 AM (This post was last modified: 26-02-2017 10:37 AM by cactus.)
RE: Islam and western values/society
(26-02-2017 10:06 AM)NHBERDUG ZDUULRU Wrote:  
(26-02-2017 09:57 AM)cactus Wrote:  That one is poorly worded. They answered "no" to the question "Is homosexual behavior moral," which is still an extremely vague question for them to answer. The word homosexual can refer sexual attraction, sexual acts, romantic attraction, romantic acts, obtaining a legal document of marriage, crossdressing, kissing your platonic partner, sleeping in the same bed, etc etc etc etc, depending on who you ask. The word "homophobic" is even more poorly defined. It is not a word that I would personally use to describe anyone.

Homophobia is the dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people. If they think that homosexual behaviour is not moral then they are prejudiced towards homosexuals.

Yeah, I don't mean the term "homophobia" doesn't have a commonly understood meaning; it's just a word that's not very good at describing what exactly it is that a person doesn't like, or in what way they don't like it.

"89% of Muslims in countries which have large Muslim minorities or majorities said that homosexual behavior is immoral" still gets the message across more clearly, I think.

The unfortunate truth about statistics like this is that when people are indoctrinated into belief systems as pervasive as theocratic Islam, the adherents to the belief system don't really know themselves as well as they think they do. "Do homosexuals deserve to die? All of my friends and family expect me to say yes. My government expects me to say yes. I might be murdered, or worse ,punished eternally, if I don't say yes, so I guess that means it's my belief." All of this goes on subconsciously, of course.

I know from personal experience of being raised in Christianity, when someone asked me what I thought, I would tell them what I thought they wanted to hear, and I didn't even know I was doing it. I wasn't aware that my thoughts could even be independent.

If we came from dust, then why is there still dust?
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26-02-2017, 12:51 PM (This post was last modified: 26-02-2017 12:54 PM by mordant.)
RE: Islam and western values/society
(26-02-2017 10:06 AM)NHBERDUG ZDUULRU Wrote:  Homophobia is the dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people. If they think that homosexual behaviour is not moral then they are prejudiced towards homosexuals.
I'm afraid I have to agree that this point is an overreach.

While it is perhaps true that those who think homosexuality is immoral generally are homophobic, it is certainly possible to consider it immoral without being repulsed or threatened by it; one could even be entirely indifferent. All that the data supports here is the statement, "89% of Muslims in countries which have large Muslim minorities or majorities believe that homosexual behavior is not moral." What this would lead me to do is to look for further studies or data that would support how many consider homosexuality an existential threat to either their society / culture or to Islam itself. Maybe the number is the same, or higher, or not significantly lower. But you can't draw the conclusion you're drawing from the question actually being answered. Framing is everything in surveys, and you have to be very careful not to overreach.

My guess is that this 89% is simply parroting a party line but that says very little about how exercised they are about it. When I was a fundamentalist Christian I would have said "homosexuality is immoral" without having a clear concept of why and without actually caring about it in my everyday life. I didn't know any homosexuals, or at least not any un-closeted ones; I had never been propositioned or sexually assaulted by one; indeed, living as I did in the rural midwest I regarded it as a weird problem of large urban areas that I could pretty much ignore. One wonders how many Muslims really care that much, too.
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26-02-2017, 01:01 PM
RE: Islam and western values/society
What are "western values" if i may ask?
Where does the "west" stop and the "east" begin?
What about the "north" and the "south"?

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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26-02-2017, 01:05 PM
RE: Islam and western values/society
(26-02-2017 01:01 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  What are "western values" if i may ask?
Where does the "west" stop and the "east" begin?
What about the "north" and the "south"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture
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26-02-2017, 01:28 PM
RE: Islam and western values/society
A lot of links you're posting.

What Islam are we talking about exactly? Shia or Sunni? What particular denomination? What culture? Bosnia, Turkey, Indonesia? The Middle East? What Middle Eastern country exactly? Are you aware that there's an abundance of different cultures within majority muslim countries?

Or could it be that there's a broad brush applied somewhere? And where exactly features the AFD in there?
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26-02-2017, 01:51 PM (This post was last modified: 26-02-2017 01:54 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Islam and western values/society
(26-02-2017 09:57 AM)cactus Wrote:  
(26-02-2017 09:10 AM)NHBERDUG ZDUULRU Wrote:  [11] 89% of Muslims in countries which have large Muslim minorities or majorities are homophobic.

That one is poorly worded.

I'm having problems with the statistic itself. I can't find it in the study and it's not obvious how it is derived from the data. Interesting though. Would be more interesting if it was compared to the % of Muslim in non-Muslim rich countries though. Then maybe you could say something quantitative about the influence of religion vs. culture on their views.

#sigh
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