Islam vs Atheism
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09-09-2012, 01:24 AM
Islam vs Atheism




Not many realize that the penalty for apostasy is death.

But I think the time to refute their arguments is at hand. Even if they bomb my house it's worth it to bring some Muslims to atheism.

(ps partially kidding about the bomb part)

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09-09-2012, 01:26 AM
RE: Islam vs Atheism



Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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09-09-2012, 09:19 AM
RE: Islam vs Atheism
Hey, fst.

Thanks for the video. It's really interesting. I don't quite get the thread title though.

Quote:Not many realize that the penalty for apostasy is death.

Where? Or do you mean everywhere? Like in Michigan.

PS: I wish you were completely kidding about the bomb part.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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09-09-2012, 09:23 AM
RE: Islam vs Atheism
(09-09-2012 09:19 AM)Ghost Wrote:  
Quote:Not many realize that the penalty for apostasy is death.

Where? Or do you mean everywhere? Like in Michigan.
Here and here you go.

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09-09-2012, 10:18 AM
RE: Islam vs Atheism
Hey, Vosur.

Thanks for the links.

According to Wikipedia, Sharia courts exist in seven countries: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Afghanistan, Somalia and parts of northern Nigeria.

Dating back to 1992, only one person has been sentenced to death for apostasy while globally there have been about 19 arrests total, none of which have resulted in an execution, one case was dismissed after the intervention of of Afghan president Karzai and an undisclosed number of raids have been carried out in Afghanistan and Iran with no mention of anyone being charged, convicted and sentenced to death; although these were carried out by the secret police in Iran and they were referred to as death squads.

Outside of that, every other case involving death threats or actual murders have been carried out by extremist vigilante civilians.

Also, several Muslim scholars in several countries are challenging the death penalty for apostasy on Qur'anic grounds.

It would seem that a Muslim is way more likely to be eaten by a shark than they are to be executed for apostasy.

So the statement, "the penalty for apostasy is death," seems grossly misleading. It is misleading on the level of how restricted the practice is, how few people are arrested and how virtually no one is actually executed for it and that the lions share of death threats and actual murders are neither sanctioned by the state nor the religious courts but are instead carried out by vigilantes.

I'm not saying that it's a good thing, but I think a little realism is in order.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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09-09-2012, 03:23 PM
RE: Islam vs Atheism
(09-09-2012 10:18 AM)Ghost Wrote:  I'm not saying that it's a good thing, but I think a little realism is in order.

Realism is... that a death threat for being an atheist or an agnostic or even critical on religion makes people quite and fearfull.
I hate to bring it up, but i think the history of my country is a good example for my argument.
Between 1933 and 1945, a bunch of evil people under A. H. mislead my country.
You may have notice that there were some people in that time, who act against this system.
You may have heard about the White Rose, Anne Frank and Otto, Graf von Stauffenberg.
They all get killed by the Nazis. They were hanged, beheaded or shot dead.
After they deid, the resistance in my people deid, too.
Thats why the Americans and there allys had to make a home-visit to my country.

And likewise the apostasy-laws are designed to make people fear the posselility of getting between those millstones.
This system is allways working, thats why all religions have things like hell and blasphemy-rules.
After all, my opinion is, if god gives us a free will, then he gives us the possebility and the right to be critical.
But, to come back to my little example, A.H. didn'd gave us a free will, he takes them away.
Thats what a religion doe's, they takes the free will and turned him against humans, changed him into self-doubt and fear.
Some day, and i hope i never see him coming, we Atheist are the Americans and there allys, and then we have to fight for humans right to be free from religion.
That is, in my opinion, the true meaning of the word's "freedom of religion".

If atheism is a religion, then not playing football is an Olympic discipline.
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09-09-2012, 05:09 PM
RE: Islam vs Atheism
Hey, Marco.

As I said, I'm not suggesting that it's a good thing, so I agree with you about all of the reasons it's not a good thing. I'm just cautioning people to avoid Chicken Little "the sky is falling" thinking.

Being eaten by sharks is a bad thing, but the impact on shark populations as a result of Jaws and other media that portrayed sharks as remourseless man eating machines resulted in an absolute slaughter of sharks. Do they eat people? Yes they do. But the point is, it was blown way out of proportion. Proportion is all I'm seeking. If someone says, "The penalty for apostasy is death," and there's only one recorded case of state-sanctioned execution for apostasy in the last two decades, that is blowing things WAY out of proportion.

We're free thinkers, not demagogues. We rely on fact, not emotional arguments.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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09-09-2012, 05:21 PM
RE: Islam vs Atheism
Hello ghost,
you can't even know how much your analogie hit's the target.

Being biten or eaten by a shark is my biggest fear ever, since i saw Jaws the first time.
But, and now keep my words in mind, i didn't kill sharks, i stay out of the water.
I never ever going into the see, since. No way!

And that is the point. If you ever have seen a woman or man being stoned to death, you will never open your mouth again.

If atheism is a religion, then not playing football is an Olympic discipline.
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09-09-2012, 07:33 PM
RE: Islam vs Atheism
Hey, Marco.

Staying out of the water is an irrational reaction. Millions of people swim in the same waters as sharks without incident. So it's positive that you don't kill sharks, but you're still reacting emotionally and ignoring the data.

I don't see what stoning has to do with this thread and that's part of the problem. It's an emotional plea. I don't bother with those.

THAT it happens is not in dispute. THAT it's not a good thing is not in dispute. But when describing the problem, we have a responsibility to not overstate the matter.

Planes crash. But the frequency is so low that millions of people fly perfectly carefree every year. Saying that there is a risk is reasonable. Calling for strict safety standards is reasonable. Holding people accountable if they are negligent in maintaining the aircraft is reasonable. Running through the airport screaming, "you're all gonna die," at the top of your lungs is not reasonable.

Do apostate Muslims face danger? Of course they do. But the data seems to point to the fact that they have WAY more to fear from vigilante justice than they do from any state or religious court. So if we do even a cursory needs assessment, changing the law is actually a low priority. The situation is more akin to Alabama in the 50s and 60s where "Good ol boys" would kill blacks with impunity. Public outreach, or the serious lack thereof, seems to be the real issue at hand.

So yes, it's bad, it's all bad. But reason saves the day, not fear mongering.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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09-09-2012, 07:46 PM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2012 08:13 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Islam vs Atheism
Dear Ghost

The point of the thread is that I think that we focus on christianity but rarely touch islam.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Apostasy
Quote:For almost 1,400 years, the punishment for apostasy has been death. Only recently has this been challenged, mainly by Islamic apologists in the West. A Pew poll released on December 2, 2010, found that even today “The majority of Muslims would favor changing current laws in their countries to “allow stoning as punishment for adultery, hand amputation for theft, and death for those who convert from Islam as their religion”.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Stoning_to_Death
Quote:Stoning to death (رجم Rajm), according to traditional interpretations of Islamic law, is primarily a punishment for persons who engage in unlawful sexual relations (which include homosexual relationships), and is one example of abrogation (naskh) being applied to Qur'anic text. The criminals "hands are tied behind their backs and their bodies are put in a cloth sack." They are then "buried in a hole, with only the victims heads showing above the ground. If its a woman, she is buried upto her shoulders." The stones which are to be thrown at the criminal "should not be so large that the offender dies after a few strikes, nor so small as to fail to cause serious injury."

Raping your wives is permitted in Islam:




Maybe we are deluded but it seems as though the religion of peace is really a violent faith that needs more attention. More criticism, and more opposition from atheists, humanists, and others.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
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