Islam vs Atheism
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09-09-2012, 07:59 PM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2012 08:14 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Islam vs Atheism
(09-09-2012 07:33 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Marco.

Staying out of the water is an irrational reaction. Millions of people swim in the same waters as sharks without incident. So it's positive that you don't kill sharks, but you're still reacting emotionally and ignoring the data.

I don't see what stoning has to do with this thread and that's part of the problem. It's an emotional plea. I don't bother with those.

THAT it happens is not in dispute. THAT it's not a good thing is not in dispute. But when describing the problem, we have a responsibility to not overstate the matter.

Planes crash. But the frequency is so low that millions of people fly perfectly carefree every year. Saying that there is a risk is reasonable. Calling for strict safety standards is reasonable. Holding people accountable if they are negligent in maintaining the aircraft is reasonable. Running through the airport screaming, "you're all gonna die," at the top of your lungs is not reasonable.

Do apostate Muslims face danger? Of course they do. But the data seems to point to the fact that they have WAY more to fear from vigilante justice than they do from any state or religious court. So if we do even a cursory needs assessment, changing the law is actually a low priority. The situation is more akin to Alabama in the 50s and 60s where "Good ol boys" would kill blacks with impunity. Public outreach, or the serious lack thereof, seems to be the real issue at hand.

So yes, it's bad, it's all bad. But reason saves the day, not fear mongering.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Maybe you should watch this. Maryam Namazie is an Ex-Muslim turned Atheist



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09-09-2012, 09:29 PM
RE: Islam vs Atheism
Hey, fst.

In your first response, I have no idea what your counter-argument is.

In your second response, would you be willing to summarise the 50 minute video and explain how it relates to my post that you quoted? I'm busy and an hour is a big investment of time. In short, WHY should I watch it?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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09-09-2012, 09:47 PM
RE: Islam vs Atheism
(09-09-2012 09:29 PM)Ghost Wrote:  In short, WHY should I watch it?

For understanding.

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09-09-2012, 11:51 PM
RE: Islam vs Atheism
Dear ghost,
you are so close, but you dont think through the whole idea.
You talking about irrationality, but you dont see that we humans are allways acting irrational.
That is by fare our greates weakness and also our greatest advantage.
Look, if the human race were a not emotional and irrational, we didn't have the need for a god to rule over our life.
So, the last time i look into the statistics, there was a overwelming majority of people who beliefs in god's or something supernatural.
My point here is, that we are emotional and irrational and the founders of any kind of religion know that from observing people and they use this facts to support there
beliefsystems.
Thats how you can beat you biggest enemy. You must know his weakest points and play the card.
You may have a point to say staying out of the water in fear for sharks is irrational,
but to me its the perfect way to avoide my fear and stay alive.
No water, no sharks.
No disobedience, no death sentence.
All the other people, swimming in the same water with sharks are Atheist and sometimes they lack the fear for death.
To overcome the fear you need an other irrational emotion, called courage... you know, the condition in which you can feel the power to win against all reason.

If atheism is a religion, then not playing football is an Olympic discipline.
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10-09-2012, 05:37 AM
RE: Islam vs Atheism
Hey, fst.

Now that you have the facetious answer out of the way, tell me about the video.

Hey, Marco.

I disagree. Humans can be irrational but that doesn't mean we should be.

Where I come from, embellishing the facts is the tool of the demagogue. I want nothing to do with it.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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10-09-2012, 09:09 AM
RE: Islam vs Atheism
(10-09-2012 05:37 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Marco.

I disagree. Humans can be irrational but that doesn't mean we should be.

Where I come from, embellishing the facts is the tool of the demagogue. I want nothing to do with it.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Sorry, but now i am a little bit confused?!
On the one hand you say, you dont want to paint the facts in nice color's because its not honest to do so, and on the other hand you say" Humans can be soandso, but thats not the way they should be.

And we change that, by... making a wish, or what?

Sure, if a muslim in on of your debates get's offendet and lose the rest of his selfcontroll, you told him, he clould be angry, but he should not.
If you come out of that coma, let me know how to chew a burger without teehs.

There is a rule behind any kind communication, listen, think and respond.
But they don't respect this rules, they enforce there owen.
That isn't the way it should be, but still it is.
Make your wish.

If atheism is a religion, then not playing football is an Olympic discipline.
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10-09-2012, 06:18 PM
RE: Islam vs Atheism
Hey, Marco.

Brother, I don't have a fucking clue what you're on about.

If you watched the news and the anchor said that three billion people died of AIDS this year, you'd accept that? I would not, because it's embellishing the truth in a big way. Or if they said, "If you have sex, you will get AIDS." None of these statements have any relationship with fact. That's the sole issue.

"The terrorists can get you any time, any place, so be afraid." No. Actually they cannot. They have a really limited ability to harm us. But for 11 years as of tomorrow morning, people have been using that horse shit line to manipulate people into supporting some pretty gonzo shit.

Similarly, the absolute statement, "The penalty for apostasy is death," when scrutinised, is equally separated from fact. Yes, it can be the penalty. Yes it has been on the books for 1400 years. Yes, SEVEN countries have that law on the books, but not all Muslim countries and not even the most populated Muslim country on earth; Indonesia. And yes, people can be killed for it, but there is (based on the data furnished to me) only one documented case in the last two decades. None of this means that killing people for apostasy is good or that it should not be resisted. It just means, stick to the facts and don't try to manipulate people's emotions by suggesting that there's some sort of pandemic going on that they should fear when in fact it's statistically insignificant. Demagogues blow things out of proportion, ignoring fact, to play on people's emotions in order to manipulate them. That needs to be resisted whenever it is encountered.

Now, fst, please do not take this as a personal indictment. I'm not calling you a demagogue; although I do question your statement. I'm just illustrating the inherent danger and, as they say, hunting rabbit with a grenade launcher because people just ain't pickin up what I'm putting down.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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10-09-2012, 08:35 PM (This post was last modified: 10-09-2012 09:08 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Islam vs Atheism
(10-09-2012 06:18 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Now, fst, please do not take this as a personal indictment. I'm not calling you a demagogue; although I do question your statement. I'm just illustrating the inherent danger and, as they say, hunting rabbit with a grenade launcher because people just ain't pickin up what I'm putting down.

Similarly, the absolute statement, "The penalty for apostasy is death"

In logic a statement is either a meaningful declarative sentence that is either true or false. I'm not using the statement in an absolute sense, that it's absolutely true, but I'm using it in a way that it is mostly true.

Now I never stated that "all muslims do x" or that "all apostates are killed" but that it does happen with enough frequency that we should criticize their actions. I realize that when I generalize I do not intend the meaning to encompass every single person of x. I use it in the terms the majority x does blah.

Most of the time I am too lazy to type out the majority, some, most of etc to get a point across.

Saudi beheads four citizens over murders-for apostasy death penalty
http://www.trinityafer.com/en/index.php/...th-penalty

Tunisian Muslims Behead an Apostate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFzlh0QxnxY

Teenage Girl Tortured and Shot Dead for Leaving Islam – by Her Parents
http://undhimmi.com/2010/12/04/teenage-g...r-parents/

Muslims kidnap Christian convert from Islam, behead him, then dump his headless corpse on the street.
http://www.bosnewslife.com/18209-somalia...-beheading

Mother of 4 suffers a slow death as she is dragged out of her home in front of villagers and has her throat slit by Qur'an-waving Islamists for converting to Christianity
http://www.aina.org/news/20110119204936....2011-09-19

Christian convert from Islam killed in soccer stadium because his apostasy "insulted the prophet". The execution was attended by hundreds of people, including school children who were forced to watch
http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/2010/s10070036.htm

Christian convert shot and forced to pay US$266 by a camp “court” for his conversion "dishonoring Islam". Muslim gangs raping and killing converts, denying them access to water and burning their homes
http://www.crosswalk.com/11596821/

Also many more here http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Persecution_of_Ex-Muslims

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10-09-2012, 09:09 PM
RE: Islam vs Atheism
Muslims assert that Allah is a later evolution, and indeed the same divine being, (in pre Islamic times), as Yahweh, the god of the other guys, (the Patriarchs, Prophets, and Apostles...the Jewish people, and the Christians). Thus the ONLY issue is the obvious one of continuity. If Allah really IS Yahweh, then "he" is just, if not more ridiculous, than the Yahweh god, (the "God of the Armies", better known to Christians as the "Lord of Hosts"). Even some Christians attempt to say Islam is one of the three "Abrahamics". Historically, this is false.

Yahweh is easily refuted, historically. So the question is, "is Allah, (Ilah) a DIFFERENT deity, or a continuity?". While the claim in Islam is that the deity IS a continuity, in fact it isn't. Allah, upon historical examination, proves to be a pre-Islamic deity. The continuity claim is essential if the claim to a "continuous flow" of revelation is to remain intact. Allah, historically, has been proven to be a PRE-ISLAMIC moon-god. In fact Mecca was originally built as a shrine to the moon-god. The religious claims are shredded by the archaeology, just as happens with the Yahweh claims. Allah, just as Yahweh, had a wife. He was married to the sun goddess, and the stars were the daughters. Just as Yahweh, Allah was not the only god in the house. The popularity of the moon god, began to wane, as astronomers began to predict the moon's cycle, so Arabs began to say that the moon-god was the greatest of the gods, just as Yahweh came to be seen as the one god, when in fact he was one of many. Besides the moon-god, they also worshiped 359 other known gods at the Kabah in Mecca.

The temple of the moon god remained active as a worship site well into the Christian era, and the moon god was worshiped in both North Arabia, and South Arabia in Muhammad's day, and was still the dominant cult. The name of the moon god was "Sin", but it's title was al-ilah, which meant "the deity", (emphasis on "the"), ie meaning this deity was the chief among the gods. The god Il, or "Ilah", was a PHASE of the moon god. Allah was a popular name. Muhammad's father and uncle had "Allah", as part of their names. Allah is NEVER defined in the Qur'an. Why ? Because Muhammad was raised in the cult of the moon-god, and he assumed that everyone already knew who he was. Muhammad just went the extra step, (as the later Jews did), and said he was one of many, then was first of many, then the only.

The claim that Allah IS Yahweh is nonsense. Islam is a moon-god cult, AND even if Allah were Yahweh, since Yahweh is nonsense, so is Allah.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZY2eeozdo8[/quote]

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11-09-2012, 04:54 AM (This post was last modified: 11-09-2012 10:01 AM by Marco Krieger.)
RE: Islam vs Atheism
(10-09-2012 06:18 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Marco.

Brother, I don't have a fucking clue what you're on about.

If you watched the news and the anchor said that three billion people died of AIDS this year, you'd accept that? I would not, because it's embellishing the truth in a big way. Or if they said, "If you have sex, you will get AIDS." None of these statements have any relationship with fact. That's the sole issue.

"The terrorists can get you any time, any place, so be afraid." No. Actually they cannot. They have a really limited ability to harm us. But for 11 years as of tomorrow morning, people have been using that horse shit line to manipulate people into supporting some pretty gonzo shit.

Demagogues blow things out of proportion, ignoring fact, to play on people's emotions in order to manipulate them. That needs to be resisted whenever it is encountered.

Hello Ghost,

at first, i have to admit, sometimes i going over the the edge.
I am try to calm down, but its not easy for me, i am a emotional person.
Second, i hope the fakt, you dont understand what i am talking about is a matter of language.
English is not my first-language, so maybe i wrote something and it makes no sence on these level.
If you dont know what i am on about, because i wrote stuff thats not clear enough, thats my problem, too.
Maybe i have to put it from a differend angle, so give it a try.

If someone told me, billions of people gonna die of AIDS, he has to povide me with some data to make the point solit, so i agree with you in that point.
That AIDS is a sexual-transmitted-disease is common knowledge.
And yes you getting the disease from unsave sex.
In some parts of the world like Swasiland you have a 50/50 chance to have AIDS after heterosexual sex without condom.

Your sentence referring to the fear for terror supports aktually my point of view, i think.
And to make it clear, i dont think it should be that way, but the terror-tactics working perfectly fine.
They reach there goal, President Bush responded with a massiv cut to the civil-rights and my country do the same.
My coverment has a debate on the issue of useing the Bundeswehr (our militär-force) to shot down a plain in case of an terrorist-attack, no, not 2001, today at 2012, ok, we are a bit slow, but we are accurat.
We have now a law, thats allowed the use of our militär-forces in our own country.
Thats all observations based fakts, dont you think?

To say, things should not be the way they are, solve's not the problem.
I mean, i spend a lot time to study the human behavior.
I do it to gain more knowlege, because its an interresting field.
I my earlier post i try to discribe the way, from my prospective, the human behavier works in favore of oppressiv systems.
The biggest tool in the box, to make people obedint is fear.
Thats not specific for Islam, you can chose what system you ever want, the Human behavior is universal, so all of them use it.
Fear works because its linked with the survival instinct.
In order to survive humans will do everything.
Thats a basice evolotion-tactic, called adaptation.

But to notice that a adaptation is at hand, is not to like it.
And in most countrys in europa we try to adapt to islam.
We didn't convert to islam, we try to intergrate it in to our societys.
And that is dangerous, from my point of view.
And if you call me an Demagogue because i made a statement about what i notice,
then you are ignoring a source of information, because i express it in a emotional way.
Thats like a hysterically screaming woman runs into you, claims her house is on fire and you say: Let's see some data and envidence to make your claim solit and by the way calm down, your house should not burn, at all.

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