Islamophobia?
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24-03-2015, 11:58 AM
RE: Islamophobia?
(24-03-2015 11:18 AM)pablo Wrote:  The US I think, is in the late stages of level three.

I agree, but I also believe that, mainly because of the internet, theistic belief is on the downside.

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.--Voltaire.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." --Thomas Paine.
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24-03-2015, 12:03 PM (This post was last modified: 24-03-2015 12:07 PM by 666wannabe.)
RE: Islamophobia?
For anyone who is interested in the gory details about Islamic terror and Sharia Law, there are two notable sites. The first site keeps a running tabulation of the Islamic body count since 9-11-2001.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

and

http://www.jihadwatch.org/

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.--Voltaire.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." --Thomas Paine.
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24-03-2015, 12:27 PM
RE: Islamophobia?
(24-03-2015 11:01 AM)666wannabe Wrote:  There are basically four levels on which a person's religious beliefs may be played out. From the least threatening to the most threatening, these levels are; 1) Personal, 2) Social, 3) Socio-Political, and 4) Political. <...snip...>

Your mistake is in interpreting Islam as the bat-shit crazy extremists interpret it. Throughout the history of Islam, from the time of Mohammed until the fall of the Ottoman Empire, Muslims lived peacefully with Christians, Jews, and people of other faiths. They discriminated against them, as ruling groups always do everywhere in the world. But they did not chop off their heads for not believing in Islam.

The politics of the Middle East over the past century or so have spawned a frightening number of bat-shit crazy Islamist extremists who pick and choose which verses of the Qur'an to read, just as Christian fundamentalists do with the Bible.

The vast majority of Muslims are just like the vast majority of Christians: They believe in their magic man in the sky and their heaven after they die, and they live ordinary, peaceful lives and just want to be left alone.

The bat-shit crazy Muslims (the extremist minority) use the word jihad (literally struggle) to denote a war against the unbelievers. The moderate Muslims (the majority) use the word jihad to mean the internal struggle to be good Muslims, which is a struggle because no rational person could ever believe all the crap that religions (all of them) spout. The Qur'an does not tell Muslims to kill people, except when defending themselves. In fact, the Qur'an prohibits the killing of women, children, and men who are not combatants in war. The terrorists are in clear violation of the Qur'an. But, like extremists everywhere, they don't give a shit.

I repeat that religion is crap. But most people who espouse a religion take it no more seriously than whether to have Thousand Island or Italian dressing on their salad. This applies to Muslims as much as all others.

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el cielo por alas,
nosotros por lágrimas."
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24-03-2015, 12:58 PM
RE: Islamophobia?
(24-03-2015 12:27 PM)daniel1948 Wrote:  
(24-03-2015 11:01 AM)666wannabe Wrote:  There are basically four levels on which a person's religious beliefs may be played out. From the least threatening to the most threatening, these levels are; 1) Personal, 2) Social, 3) Socio-Political, and 4) Political. <...snip...>

The Qur'an does not tell Muslims to kill people, except when defending themselves. In fact, the Qur'an prohibits the killing of women, children, and men who are not combatants in war. The terrorists are in clear violation of the Qur'an. But, like extremists everywhere, they don't give a shit.

The members of ISIS and Boko Haram ought to read the Quran, then. They have the notion that unbelievers should be killed.

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.--Voltaire.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." --Thomas Paine.
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24-03-2015, 01:04 PM
RE: Islamophobia?
Islam never had an Enlightenment, a Thirty Years war, an infestation of heretics and schismatics. If someone got out of line they were killed.
Hirsi Ali recognizes that Islam, like Christianity before it, needs 'radical' reformation or it will always be a roadblock that leaves believers ignorant and ethically challenged, poor and willing fodder for jihad and hate.
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24-03-2015, 01:54 PM
RE: Islamophobia?
Does the Quran really contain dozens of verses promoting violence?
2006-2016 TheReligionofPeace.com. All rights reserved.

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.
Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, the verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Quran.

Quran (8:12) –
"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

Quran (8:39) –
"And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:193). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."

Quran (9:29) –
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

"People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. According to this verse, they are to be violently subjugated, with the sole justification being their religious status. Verse 9:33 tells Muslims that Allah has charted them to make Islam"superior over all religions." This chapter was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.

Quran (9:38-39) –
"O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place."

This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.

There are many other such passages in the Quran and the Hadiths.

There is no such thing as moderate Islam, there are only moderate Muslims who reject the passages.

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.--Voltaire.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." --Thomas Paine.
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24-03-2015, 04:32 PM
RE: Islamophobia?
(24-03-2015 12:27 PM)daniel1948 Wrote:  
(24-03-2015 11:01 AM)666wannabe Wrote:  There are basically four levels on which a person's religious beliefs may be played out. From the least threatening to the most threatening, these levels are; 1) Personal, 2) Social, 3) Socio-Political, and 4) Political. <...snip...>

Your mistake is in interpreting Islam as the bat-shit crazy extremists interpret it. Throughout the history of Islam, from the time of Mohammed until the fall of the Ottoman Empire, Muslims lived peacefully with Christians, Jews, and people of other faiths. They discriminated against them, as ruling groups always do everywhere in the world. But they did not chop off their heads for not believing in Islam.

The politics of the Middle East over the past century or so have spawned a frightening number of bat-shit crazy Islamist extremists who pick and choose which verses of the Qur'an to read, just as Christian fundamentalists do with the Bible.

The vast majority of Muslims are just like the vast majority of Christians: They believe in their magic man in the sky and their heaven after they die, and they live ordinary, peaceful lives and just want to be left alone.

The bat-shit crazy Muslims (the extremist minority) use the word jihad (literally struggle) to denote a war against the unbelievers. The moderate Muslims (the majority) use the word jihad to mean the internal struggle to be good Muslims, which is a struggle because no rational person could ever believe all the crap that religions (all of them) spout. The Qur'an does not tell Muslims to kill people, except when defending themselves. In fact, the Qur'an prohibits the killing of women, children, and men who are not combatants in war. The terrorists are in clear violation of the Qur'an. But, like extremists everywhere, they don't give a shit.

I repeat that religion is crap. But most people who espouse a religion take it no more seriously than whether to have Thousand Island or Italian dressing on their salad. This applies to Muslims as much as all others.

Are you being serious? Your historical knowledge is lacking my friend.

You're generalising extremists and moderates too much too. I've spoken to some moderates who do not think of jihad as just inner struggle. But they do say that it is only justifiable when they are under threat of oppression (the differing definitions of which brings about another complication).

Your knowledge of the Quran is also wrong. It does promote peace in some parts, but also violence. Start by being honest before you defend a religion.

It could be argued that the contradictions negate any legitimacy of the fundamentals, and so confirms my opinion that religions like this are absolute nothingness.

P.S Winston lives peacefully under big brother until he disobeys them.

Saints live in flames; wise men, next to them.
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24-03-2015, 04:34 PM
RE: Islamophobia?
(24-03-2015 01:04 PM)Billy Bob Wrote:  Islam never had an Enlightenment, a Thirty Years war, an infestation of heretics and schismatics. If someone got out of line they were killed.
Hirsi Ali recognizes that Islam, like Christianity before it, needs 'radical' reformation or it will always be a roadblock that leaves believers ignorant and ethically challenged, poor and willing fodder for jihad and hate.

It never had anything to the extend of the Enlightenment per say (though there were a number of schools of thought which were similar, but these were, as you rightly said, "put back in line".) but they did have a lot of fricking schisms.

Saints live in flames; wise men, next to them.
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25-03-2015, 01:00 AM (This post was last modified: 25-03-2015 01:05 AM by Billy Bob.)
RE: Islamophobia?
I could say here that mainstream American (because that is where I live) Christianity embraces tolerance, secular government, multiculturalism, a distaste for war, poverty and ignorance and supports science and other classic liberal values. I would be picked apart on every point and yet is that not mostly so? IMO activist fundamentalist Christianity is almost as distasteful to the average Christian American as it is to an atheist.
Hirsi Ali makes that point, that the dissonance between radical Islamists and basic cultural and theological Islam is much weaker than in the west. That Islam lacks the consensus of classic liberal values that override classic Christianity (which would be just as bad as Islam were it allowed to be).
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25-03-2015, 01:13 AM
RE: Islamophobia?
(24-03-2015 01:04 PM)Billy Bob Wrote:  Islam never had an Enlightenment, a Thirty Years war, an infestation of heretics and schismatics. If someone got out of line they were killed.
Hirsi Ali recognizes that Islam, like Christianity before it, needs 'radical' reformation or it will always be a roadblock that leaves believers ignorant and ethically challenged, poor and willing fodder for jihad and hate.


Islam had a short lived enlightenment, they however lack a reformation.


It was Islamic scholars who preserved the remnants of classical Greek and Roman knowledge while Europe wallowed in the Christian Dark Ages. Not only that, but they also made striking advances in fields like astronomy and mathematics, even today the vast majority of named stars have Arabic names, and we can thank them for the number zero, Arabic numerals, algebra, and other scientific advances.

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