Islamophobia?
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18-08-2016, 09:08 PM
Islamophobia?
Hey everyone~

I'm in need of a little direction here. I've been researching and learning as much as I can about Islam. I've listened to Sam Harris and Ayaan Hirsi Ali speak about Islamophobia saying that it is a myth. That Islam is not a race but a belief system. This I understand and agree with and I've even argued with some over this issue by pointing out the cultural bias is just that and that one cannot assume one's belief system by ethnicity.

But the more I think about it the more it stands to reason that being afraid of Islam IS a rational fear in light of the fact that their extremists slaughter atheists. On the other hand isn't a phobia an irrational fear?

I've encountered some Muslim women on FB and I really want to make sure I've got my facts straight when engaging with them. Yet, truth be told, the lot of them are ducking out with spurious excuses and passing the buck to the point of saying that I'm dodging their questions when what's really happening is that they're dodging my answer.

I'll copy and past the FB thread if anyone is interested.

Thanks in advance for any input. You people are SO smart! I adore you!

Tallulah
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19-08-2016, 03:04 AM (This post was last modified: 19-08-2016 03:19 AM by Gloucester.)
RE: Islamophobia?
(18-08-2016 09:08 PM)Tallulah Wrote:  Hey everyone~

I'm in need of a little direction here. I've been researching and learning as much as I can about Islam. I've listened to Sam Harris and Ayaan Hirsi Ali speak about Islamophobia saying that it is a myth. That Islam is not a race but a belief system. This I understand and agree with and I've even argued with some over this issue by pointing out the cultural bias is just that and that one cannot assume one's belief system by ethnicity.

But the more I think about it the more it stands to reason that being afraid of Islam IS a rational fear in light of the fact that their extremists slaughter atheists. On the other hand isn't a phobia an irrational fear?

I've encountered some Muslim women on FB and I really want to make sure I've got my facts straight when engaging with them. Yet, truth be told, the lot of them are ducking out with spurious excuses and passing the buck to the point of saying that I'm dodging their questions when what's really happening is that they're dodging my answer.

I'll copy and past the FB thread if anyone is interested.

Thanks in advance for any input. You people are SO smart! I adore you!

Tallulah

Hi, Tallulah. You have probably read more than I but I have been keeping an eye on this sort of thing for years and it churns around in the analytical engine I call my brain.

Occassionaly the ouput coincides with the opinions of the pundits.

Point one: the "Islam is not a race" argument is a counter to those who say Islamophobia is a firm of racism. It might be called "culturalism", but we are all "culturalists" to some degree - I hate the kind of culture that enjoys flat out music late at night, regardless the colour of the player. That Muslim might be a converted white American or Brit etc.

Two: "Islamistophobia" will never catch on but is more accurate. I do not hate those of the Islamic faith (think they are deluded and trying to live in the Middle Ages, certainly) but I do fear "Islamists", those fundamentalists who think their book entitles them to convert or kill all non-Muslims. The Spanish xtians went through a similar phase a few hundred years ago.

One of my questions to Muslims who complain that they all tarred with the same brush is this: I see a twentyish Muslim, hair cut short, beard closely trimmed, wearing a dishdash and a kefayah and with a full rucksac on his back. Do I assume he is hadji, on his way to Meccah, or is he a jihadi on his way to blow lots of people to bits? OK, he might just be on his way to work or college.

The point is I cannot tell without asking or following him. And neither can the police, in an atmophere where bombings in Europe are becoming frequent and we have an impossibly huge Muslim immigrant vetting problem. There is bound to be fear.

This is bound to have its effect on public emotions that can easily tip into bigotry and possibly violence, if only verbal to start with. It also plays into the hands of would-be and actual politicians looking for populist support. Rabble-rousers.

Gloucester (UK) has a largish Muslim population, but it has been a "cosmopolitan" city for centuries with equally large black and Chinese communities (not to mention Poles, Czecks, Latvians, Irish . . . Not bad for a small, provincial city!)

Yet, despite "The Shoe Bomber" being a Glousterian, there is virtually no racial or cultural friction. But do not go into the "Muslim quarter" late at night if you are drunk or a girl in revealing clothes, you will be shouted at. I duslike that intensrly, there should be no no-go areas for any citizen at any time, but some things you can only monitor. Action might come if they block the roads at night, ""ghettoise" their areas.

So, allowing the confusion between Islam and Islamism, not one the average person thinks about, "Islami(isto)phobia" is a valid response. But how to handle it without mob-action?

Beyond me, I find myself sliding right-wingwise from my comfortable objective stance on this one I fear.

Dave

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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19-08-2016, 03:20 AM
RE: Islamophobia?
They wouldn't call it islamophobia in ISIS controlled Syria I'd wager.

Quote:an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something

So according to google a phobia can be simply an extreme fear, not an irrational one.
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19-08-2016, 04:03 AM
RE: Islamophobia?
(19-08-2016 03:20 AM)Pragmatix Wrote:  They wouldn't call it islamophobia in ISIS controlled Syria I'd wager.

Quote:an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something

So according to google a phobia can be simply an extreme fear, not an irrational one.
Yup, but since it can be either both are valid, depending on the "diagnosis" in an infividual circumstance. I would hold that at least "concern" about the violent aspect of Islam and, no matter how hard the Muslims try to disown the Islamists, the association will always sit at the back of the non-Muslim mind, is entirely valid.

When considering devout Muslims, even non-violent ones, there is a mindset, cultured over centuries, that is very alien to the western mind. This is why post-war Iraq was fucked up by the west approaching it with their own native mindset, trying to ignore or "convert" local values and thus making millions of minor enemies. Some of whom grew to be major ones. The whole honour system in that region is impeneterable to the western mind without much objective study and respectful familiarisation.

Ummah, a concept that binds all Muslims, regardless of sect, has been invoked a few tines by Islamists of both major sects. Horrible to say it but if they ever stop fighting one another and unite against the infidel we would be possibly looking at an assymetric WW3. Possibly with mass internment, as happened to those of Japanese descent in the US in WW2. Maybe even mass deportation.

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19-08-2016, 04:12 AM
RE: Islamophobia?
You cross the line, quite simply, when you say "You are a Muslim and therefore you _____", unless your ______ is "believe that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad was his Prophet".

We have similar issues with people coming here and telling us "what atheists believe". Unless that is followed with, "that they do not worship a god", then you're wrong in some respect.

That said, you can draw some group trends. Atheists tend to be more educated, more humanist/secular, more liberal, more frequently male, and less inclined to other forms of superstition. But that's only a broad, sweeping generalization, and just in this thread so far I see members whom I know do not fit those generalizations. Well, I think we're all educated, but you get my point.

If you fear "Muslims", then you have an irrational fear, a phobia.

If you look at the culture of radical Islam, and note that people who share certain cultural characteristics [Edit to Add: which Gloucester pointed out beautifully, above, while I was typing] and attitudes are more prone to justify (to themselves) violence and/or vitriol toward those who do not believe as they do, and recognize the overall threat that our clash of cultures may represent, without saying "That lady there in the burqa probably wants to kill me", then you are simply looking at what's going on in the world and drawing conclusions from it.

Yes, there are Islamists who would happily kill you in the name of God. And the guy right next to him would try to stop him because he believes that each person's heart is between that person and God, alone. And those two guys would be dressed the same, with the same beard, the same accent, etc.

Therein lies the problem, when the radicals decide that Western culture (they seem to despise equally for being Christian and/or atheist cultures, if you read what they write about atheistic France) is a threat to their religious beliefs that needs to be conquered for the betterment of the world, by any means necessary, but we can't visually tell the difference between members of the same culture (despite highly different philosophies), we simply don't know how to defend ourselves, and we don't feel safe... which makes us lose our sense of reason.

Personally, I think it is better to risk being blown up or taken hostage than to sacrifice the freedom of (and from) religion that is one of the great bedrocks of my culture. I think the danger that we will do so is a million times greater a threat than anything radical Islam has done... as the saying goes, "if we do that, ISIS wins".

But terrorism only accounted for 32,650 people killed in the year 2014, most of which were on the battlefield. ISIS, the most dangerous group, only caused about 6,000 deaths, most of which were against fellow Muslims:

"Discounting the estimated 20,000 deaths it inflicted on battlefields throughout the Middle East, ISIS last year also caused 6,073 deaths in 1,071 terror attacks, making it by far the most destructive group operating in the world today."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...-year.html

By comparison, in 2014, there were 32,675 traffic accident fatalities in the United States alone. This is a fairly consistent number, though down significantly from its peak in 1972 with 54,052.

Have you ever been paralyzed with fear by the thought of a traffic accident? Or do you just realize it's a possibility and get in the car without a second thought beyond putting on your seatbelt and driving carefully?

That is the difference between recognizing a danger and a phobia of it.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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19-08-2016, 05:07 AM
RE: Islamophobia?
(18-08-2016 09:08 PM)Tallulah Wrote:  Hey everyone~

I'm in need of a little direction here. I've been researching and learning as much as I can about Islam. I've listened to Sam Harris and Ayaan Hirsi Ali speak about Islamophobia saying that it is a myth. That Islam is not a race but a belief system. This I understand and agree with and I've even argued with some over this issue by pointing out the cultural bias is just that and that one cannot assume one's belief system by ethnicity.

But the more I think about it the more it stands to reason that being afraid of Islam IS a rational fear in light of the fact that their extremists slaughter atheists. On the other hand isn't a phobia an irrational fear?

I've encountered some Muslim women on FB and I really want to make sure I've got my facts straight when engaging with them. Yet, truth be told, the lot of them are ducking out with spurious excuses and passing the buck to the point of saying that I'm dodging their questions when what's really happening is that they're dodging my answer.

I'll copy and past the FB thread if anyone is interested.

Thanks in advance for any input. You people are SO smart! I adore you!

Tallulah
[quote uid=16217 name="Leela" post=1048825 timestamp=1471562429]Good evening (at least here where I am)<br />
<br />
So as I start typing this post it is almost midnight.<br />
Usually I would go have a shower now, then go to bed, watch one or two things on YouTube with my hubby, and then pass out.<br />
<br />
But not lately.<br />
<br />
As long as I get up at 7:30am and get my sleep ritual (see above), I will be able to fall asleep next to my husband.<br />
<br />
Before I met him, I had insomnia to a degree that, when I needed to go somewhere in the morning, I had to take sleeping pills to be able to fall asleep at all. Back then, my insomnia was caused by my mental problems so my doctor gave me those. But as I met him, all my symptoms started to die down for the most part. <br />
So I have had this sleep ritual for the past... I would say approaching 7 years now. It works like a charm, I need no meds for sleeping problems anymore.<br />
But I am unable to fall asleep when either the husband or the ritual is missing.<br />
Instead, I will be wide awake. My brain will keep doing it's thing and all I can do is wait until my eyes burn and my body says "fuck you!" and I just go and pass out.<br />
<br />
So currently my mr has a job that is irregular so whenever he gets his call to come to work, he will of course agree to go to work. The problem is that it always has him go to bed very early (like 8pm) and get up very early (3am, 4am).<br />
So in those cases, I cannot go to bed with him and just have him and the ritual a bit earlier. It would be 4 hours too early, that just doesn't work.<br />
<br />
Well he has been working for a few days again and I am exhausted like every time he works this job. I go to bed at like 2am because my body signals me that pass out time has come. But the second I lay down, I am completely awake and ready for a fucking marathon. I cannot fall asleep for another 30-60 minutes but then have to get up at 7:30am because work. And because I have a very light sleep and wake up from EVERYthing, I wake up at least twice but usually more times every night.<br />
So at this point I am completely exhausted, I need more sleep, but I have no idea how to fall asleep.<br />
I wish I could have those sleeping pills but I would guess they are prescription and I also forgot the name. But they always worked great... They were specifically prescribed to depressed people and did absolute wonders on me. I always slept like a baby... So in absence of those and my ritual, I need help and ideas. <br />
<br />
cheers<br />
The exhausted Leela[/quote]<br />
If you use tapatalk then it should be relatively easy to find IslamicBoard<br />
<br />
It is a community of mostly Muslims who will happily conversate with you. <br />
<br />
I would suggest a level of humility and respect there though. <br />
<br />
Many well informed genuine people there to help you with any questions you might have. <br />
<br />
I could probably help some, bit my answers would be based off of the Quran only, and I'm not technically a Muslim though I do consider myself at least trying to be Islamic (submissive to GOD) <br />
<br />
Good luck<br />
<br />
Peace <br />
<br />
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19-08-2016, 05:07 AM
RE: Islamophobia?
That worked.

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19-08-2016, 05:51 AM
RE: Islamophobia?
(19-08-2016 04:12 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Yes, there are Islamists who would happily kill you in the name of God. And the guy right next to him would try to stop him because he believes that each person's heart is between that person and God, alone. And those two guys would be dressed the same, with the same beard, the same accent, etc.

Personally, I think it is better to risk being blown up or taken hostage than to sacrifice the freedom of (and from) religion that is one of the great bedrocks of my culture. I think the danger that we will do so is a million times greater a threat than anything radical Islam has done... as the saying goes, "if we do that, ISIS wins".

Have you ever been paralyzed with fear by the thought of a traffic accident? Or do you just realize it's a possibility and get in the car without a second thought beyond putting on your seatbelt and driving carefully?

That is the difference between recognizing a danger and a phobia of it.

A-fuckin-men

Bowing

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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19-08-2016, 06:25 AM
RE: Islamophobia?
(19-08-2016 04:03 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  ...
no matter how hard the Muslims try to disown the Islamists, the association will always sit at the back of the non-Muslim mind, is entirely valid.
...

For some, maybe. Not for me.

For the vast majority of muslims (mocktail muslims©) there is no ownership to disown.

Does a guy wearing a "This is What a Feminist Looks Like" T-shirt feel any sense of ownership of the extreme feminist who wants all men castrated because she knows they are all rapists?

Does a typical cultural-catholic feel any sense of ownership of Cardinal Pell and all the other paedolphile-priests?

Do we associate all feminists and all catholics with the extreme or criminal elements of those social groups?

If not, what's the difference? Fear of the unknown? Cognitive ease vs. cognitive dissonance?

(18-08-2016 09:08 PM)Tallulah Wrote:  ...
I've encountered some Muslim women on FB and I really want to make sure I've got my facts straight when engaging with them. Yet, truth be told, the lot of them are ducking out with spurious excuses and passing the buck to the point of saying that I'm dodging their questions when what's really happening is that they're dodging my answer.
...

I've just spent the last three days with a diverse bunch of delegates.

Two guys from the Sudan (both muslim)
One guy from Papua New Guinea (I didn't ask him about religion)
Two guys and one (stunning) young lady from Saudi Arabia (muslims)
One Chinese-Malay lady (secular)
One guy and one gal from the Philippines (probably catholic (but I didn't ask))
One Indian-Malay lady (who got the highest score in the exam today)
Two Malaysian ladies and three Malaysian guys (all muslim).

First and foremost ... they are all people. All trying to make their way in this big, bad world.

It being Friday, most of the guys went to the mosque at lunchtime and over half of those were smokers and no doubt enjoy a drink or two.

When they went, I was left alone with the Saudi lady ...





She has spent the last two months in Malaysia collecting Batik art e.g.

[Image: fe46b22357493236fcc639e56035057b.jpg]

and she showed me pictures of some of her own creations ... really impressive pieces!

We chatted a little about how attitudes towards women differ in the two countries and how views are changing in Saudi Arabia (slowly but surely).

I've found that if I ask direct questions about religion, I often get the stock answer of "Well, muslims believe..." i.e. the party line ("we are taught to believe"), but if I phrase my inquiries in a broader cultural context, the answers are more open and honest.

It's a bit like the difference between asking "Why do you support Trump / Hillary" vs. "What do you think of the current Presidential election race?"

So, I guess I'm saying that the way you ask the questions is going to influence the answer you get.

(18-08-2016 09:08 PM)Tallulah Wrote:  ...
I'll copy and past the FB thread if anyone is interested.
...

I would be.

There's a section on TTA just for that kinda thing.

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19-08-2016, 06:48 AM
RE: Islamophobia?
If people started treating Muslims like they treat others. Throw them off the roof, just because they are Muslims, kill them where you find them, just because they are Muslims, rape their wives and children, just because they are Muslims, make them pay higher tax, just because they are Muslims, destroy every public display of Islam, just because they are Muslims, kill them because they don't want to convert, just because they are Muslims, and lastly enslave them and treat them like booty, just because they are Muslim. That would be Islamophobic. Does all these things sound familiar? I know Muslims don't generally do the above. Unless, of course, you're talking about groups like Daesh, but is being done in the name of Islam.

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