Islamophobia?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
19-08-2016, 06:57 AM
RE: Islamophobia?
(19-08-2016 06:25 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(19-08-2016 04:03 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  ...
no matter how hard the Muslims try to disown the Islamists, the association will always sit at the back of the non-Muslim mind, is entirely valid.
...

For some, maybe. Not for me.

For the vast majority of muslims (mocktail muslims©) there is no ownership to disown.

Does a guy wearing a "This is What a Feminist Looks Like" T-shirt feel any sense of ownership of the extreme feminist who wants all men castrated because she knows they are all rapists?

Does a typical cultural-catholic feel any sense of ownership of Cardinal Pell and all the other paedolphile-priests?

Do we associate all feminists and all catholics with the extreme or criminal elements of those social groups?

If not, what's the difference? Fear of the unknown? Cognitive ease vs. cognitive dissonance?

(18-08-2016 09:08 PM)Tallulah Wrote:  ...
I've encountered some Muslim women on FB and I really want to make sure I've got my facts straight when engaging with them. Yet, truth be told, the lot of them are ducking out with spurious excuses and passing the buck to the point of saying that I'm dodging their questions when what's really happening is that they're dodging my answer.
...

I've just spent the last three days with a diverse bunch of delegates.

Two guys from the Sudan (both muslim)
One guy from Papua New Guinea (I didn't ask him about religion)
Two guys and one (stunning) young lady from Saudi Arabia (muslims)
One Chinese-Malay lady (secular)
One guy and one gal from the Philippines (probably catholic (but I didn't ask))
One Indian-Malay lady (who got the highest score in the exam today)
Two Malaysian ladies and three Malaysian guys (all muslim).

First and foremost ... they are all people. All trying to make their way in this big, bad world.

It being Friday, most of the guys went to the mosque at lunchtime and over half of those were smokers and no doubt enjoy a drink or two.

When they went, I was left alone with the Saudi lady ...





She has spent the last two months in Malaysia collecting Batik art e.g.

[Image: fe46b22357493236fcc639e56035057b.jpg]

and she showed me pictures of some of her own creations ... really impressive pieces!

We chatted a little about how attitudes towards women differ in the two countries and how views are changing in Saudi Arabia (slowly but surely).

I've found that if I ask direct questions about religion, I often get the stock answer of "Well, muslims believe..." i.e. the party line ("we are taught to believe"), but if I phrase my inquiries in a broader cultural context, the answers are more open and honest.

It's a bit like the difference between asking "Why do you support Trump / Hillary" vs. "What do you think of the current Presidential election race?"

So, I guess I'm saying that the way you ask the questions is going to influence the answer you get.

(18-08-2016 09:08 PM)Tallulah Wrote:  ...
I'll copy and past the FB thread if anyone is interested.
...

I would be.

There's a section on TTA just for that kinda thing.

Thumbsup
You made some good points, DLJ, and I was talking in generalities, we cannot judge public reaction by our own.

I aldo have worked with Muslims, for a long time with a guy that runs the local "Time Bank" and the young Muslim lady at the disabled scooter depot is a pleasure to talk to. For me is is what the person does to improve the world, not their gender, ethnicity, intelligence or belief system, that is important. Even if I cannot understand why people worship the supernatural!

The group that might cause concern is probably quite small, the young, idealistic, unemployed ones who are vulnerable to fundamentalist propaganda. In the UK that does not only mean the likes of Daesh, it can also mean those Salafist mosques supported by Saudi Arabia, our erstwhile allies.

It is a common phenomenon that mass public opinion, stirred up a bit by the less intelligent of the media, will often do that tarring job mentioned eatlier, that can be the source if true phobias.

As RocketSurgeon implied it is the reaction to the problem that defines it, though I might look twice if a young man with a Middle Eastern or South Asian appearance gets on tbe bus with a rucksac I don't get off at the next stop. I also have confidence in my ability to judge body language and I would think anyone carrying a "useful" quantity of explosive might not behave exactly "normal" - unless very well trained.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Gloucester's post
19-08-2016, 07:36 AM
RE: Islamophobia?
Islamophobia definition = fear of Islam, I don't fear Islam I just don't like the religion.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-08-2016, 05:52 AM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2016 06:19 AM by Tallulah.)
RE: Islamophobia?
Thank you for all your responses. I will find the FB thread and re-post it here (if it hasn't been deleted.)

I was in a bit of a hurry when I wrote my original post. I left out the main question I was going to ask! Sheesh! <SMH> So here goes:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Sam Harris (to name a few) say that Islamophobia is a myth. (Islam is a belief system not a race.) I had relabeled Islamophobia as xenophobia. But the more I thought about it started to seem like a plausible term. The penalty for apostasy for Muslims is death. So, in effect, Islamophobia seems like a legitimate fear ~especially~ if you're Muslim. I've heard of atheists being slaughtered by radical Muslims. So, as an atheist it would be reasonable for me to be Islamophobic. Right?

I guess I'm just asking for clarification as to the legitimacy of the term 'Islamophobia'.

Tallulah
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-08-2016, 06:00 AM
RE: Islamophobia?
(20-08-2016 05:52 AM)Tallulah Wrote:  Thank you for all your responses. I will find the FB thread and re-post it here (if it hasn't been deleted.)

I was in a bit of a hurry when I wrote my original post. I left out the main question I was going to ask! Sheesh! <SMH> So here goes:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Sam Harris (to name a few) say that Islamophobia is a myth. (Islam is a belief system not a race.) I had relabeled Islamophobia as xenophobia. But the more I thought about it started to seem like a plausible term. The penalty for apostasy for Muslims is death. So, in effect, Islamophobia seems like a legitimate fear ~especially~ if you're a Muslim. I've heard of atheists being slaughtered by radical Muslims. So, as an atheist it would be reasonable for me to be Islamophobic. Right?

I guess I'm just asking for clarification as for the legitimacy of the term 'Islamophobia'.

Tallulah

If you're afraid of Islam then I would imagine the term islamophobic is absolutely the correct one for you to use if like me you just detest the religion I think perhaps anti Islamic would be a better choice/description.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes adey67's post
20-08-2016, 06:39 AM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2016 07:03 AM by Tallulah.)
RE: Islamophobia?
The FB thread began with CN posting this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s57kPS_gjM

This correspondence followed my comment that Islamophobia is a myth:

Ahlam Muhtaseb: "No such thing s Islamophobia"? Which planet do you live on Tallulah? By the way, Tallulah in Arabic means cyst. Just thought you might be interested in this fact!
Like · Reply · August 15 at 4:01am

Tallulah Eigennamenhass: Of course you had to resort to an ad hominem attack. Typical.
Islam isn't a race. It's a religion. Yes, there are people who are xenophobic especially where it concerns middle eastern culture.
Like · Reply · August 15 at 5:53am

Ahlam Muhtaseb: Sorry, my intention was not an attack, but I just couldn't resist in face of your existentialist assertions. I also was trying to avoid an intellectual discussion and opting out into a simplistic one instead because I am just fed up with neoliberal assertions on behalf of Muslim women. OK, so I guess you ontologically deny Islamophobia, which is problematic for me. First, there is a difference between studying/critiquing a religion, which is a legitimate epistemological approach, and Islamophobia. For example, there is a difference between a theological discussion of Judaism and antisemitism. Islamophobia involves stereotypical misinformed generalizations about Islam and Muslims, which usually lead to hate speech and crime. For example, I don't think you would deny that several of the killings against Muslims, or those who are perceived to be Muslims like Seiks, in this country are motivated by hatred/fear of Islam and Muslims; do you? Second, if we establish that there is an epistemological need to study religions, including critiquing them, then the most salient epistemological question would be "who would do such a study and critique?" Muslim women are fed up, beyond your imagination, with White/Euro neoliberal supremacist imperial or colonial feminist assertions about the "liberation of Muslim women" and our oppression. Thank you, but please leave us alone as the last time we had a group of White neoliberal feminists (by White I don't mean the skin of color as I have white skin myself) marching for our "liberation", it was part of just another imperial colonial conquest. Leave our "liberation" to us; it is not the White woman's burden, nor the White man's burden, to "liberate" us. We are fully capable of addressing our issues from own ontological perspectives. So, Ayaan Ali Hirsi is just another example of what I term "media darling" who is allowed to speak on behalf of Muslim women and their oppression when 1. she is not Muslim, and 2. she is not even well versed to talk about the issues she usually addresses. The easiest way to become a media darling is by denouncing Islam in this country and in Europe; that is Islamobphobia right here. I could give one example after the other, but I want to spare Cindy the headache. However, if you are genuinely interested in this topic and learning from a perspective that is different from the American or European mainstream, please IM me and I would be more than happy to send you a couple of my publications and/or other references written by Muslim feminists on their perceptions of Muslim feminist ideas. Sorry for the long post; I told you I was trying to avoid doing this Sad
Unlike · Reply · 1 · August 15 at 12:35pm

Tallulah Eigennamenhass: Yes, I am interested. I am at work right now. I'll respond later.
Like · Reply · August 15 at 3:21pm

Tallulah Eigennamenhass: On behalf of Muslim women? LOL! No. I speak for myself. I don't know enough about Islam to speak for its followers. I'm still learning. I do know that the word means submission and that it is not a religion of peace. A quater of the world population is Islamic. All I said was that the xenophobic, bigoted mentality in the US is all about a culture and not a belief system.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali was a Muslim woman. Now she's an apostate living under the constant threat of a fatwa. Yet you call her a 'media darling' and insist she doesn't speak for you? Ayaan speaks for ALL women.
The Arabic word for Tallulah is cyst you say. LOL. Tallulah is Native American and means leaping water. There's no Arabic translation for it. And to insist that your intention was not an attack, well, you insult me a second time by expecting me to believe that.
Like · Reply · August 16 at 2:06am · Edited

Ahlam Muhtaseb: I have a question: So, if you don't know enough about Islam and you are still learning, how have you concluded that Islam is not a religion of peace? Regarding "Ayaan speaks for All women"; who said so? who gave her that universal permission? This is what women in this country can't get; women around the world don't necessarily see things like you do. There is no such thing as universal women experience and there is no such thing as universal feminism. This is what I wrote in my previous post. I can't talk on behalf of Muslim women not even the women in my family! This is the problem with the existentialist existentialist positions neoliberal feminists take! They think in a dichotomous way; either or. Ayaan should talk about her experience and that's it because that is exactly what she knows!
Like · Reply · 1 · August 16 at 3:47pm

Tallulah Eigennamenhass: I will give you one reason why Islam is not a religion of peace: The penalty for apostasy is death. (I will list more if you'd like but I don't think it's necessary.)
As for Ayaan, she didn't require anyone's 'permission' to speak for women. She talks about her experience, she writes books about her experiences, and she speaks tirelessly to the world about it. She speaks for humanity and when she does, oftentimes her voice trembles.
For the record, liberal women (at least the ones I know) do not practice black and white thinking. To do so would make them conservative, I should think. Or perhaps Muslim.
I believe ALL Abrahamic religions are not peaceful. The atrocities committed in the name of Christ are legion. (The Inquisition to name just one.) The old testament is fraught with despicable violence. But, you see, the thing is that all of those sacrosanct religious books professing to be the word of god just aren't. ALL were written by MEN. And it shows.
Like · Reply · August 16 at 8:00pm · Edited

Ahlam Muhtaseb: That was not my question though! With all due respect, I do not have interest in what you think about Islam or any other religion. It's your right to believe in whatever you want and I am not interested in any theological conversations (although I could say that in Islam, there is no death penalty for apostates even if some told you so). My question was more of an epistemological one: how could someone reach a conclusion about a thing they just said that they were learning about? For example, in research, we can't propose a hypothesis about a "thing" before we research that "thing" well, some even say in an exhaustive way.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 17 at 3:46pm

Ahlam Muhtaseb: For the record, I said "neoliberal" women (although, talking to myself now, I could argue the same thing about liberal women also because they are not necessarily progressive), not liberal women.
Like · Reply · August 17 at 3:48pm

Tallulah Eigennamenhass: You asked me how I know that Islam is not a religion of peace. I answered you with the first paragraph of my previous post.
So I should ask you: Do you consider death as penalty for apostasy peaceful? Because I sure as hell don't. It's the equivalent of an abusive husband threatening a wife with death if she leaves him.
If a god must use death threats in order to control people then that god proves only one thing. That he's a man, not a god.
Like · Reply · August 18 at 1:47pm · Edited

Ahlam Muhtaseb: Again that was not my question: you simply dodged my question. For your question, of course not and islam doesn't either but of course if you learn about islam from Ayaan, you would get that kind of "knowledge"
Like · Reply · August 18 at 4:10pm

Ahlam Muhtaseb: Moving on to other life avenues
Like · Reply · August 18 at 4:11pm

Tallulah Eigennamenhass: I wouldn't and did not dodge your question, Ahlam. What is it you're asking then?
But I have a feeling you won't clarify but strut off to your other avenue.
I reiterate, typical.
And, truth be told, you're dodging my answer.
Like · Reply · August 18 at 10:02pm · Edited
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-08-2016, 06:50 AM
RE: Islamophobia?
(20-08-2016 06:00 AM)adey67 Wrote:  If you're afraid of Islam then I would imagine the term islamophobic is absolutely the correct one for you to use if like me you just detest the religion I think perhaps anti Islamic would be a better choice/description.

I can't say I'm 'afraid' of the religion. I just feel a tremendous amount of contempt for it, for ALL Abrahamic religions. IMO, that baby can be thrown out with the bath water.

The Hitch poses a good question about how safe one would feel running into a group of men just leaving a Mosque.

Tallulah
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-08-2016, 06:52 AM
RE: Islamophobia?
What is that a list of, Tallulah? If the history of this thread then there seem to be names missing.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-08-2016, 06:59 AM
RE: Islamophobia?
(20-08-2016 06:52 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  What is that a list of, Tallulah? If the history of this thread then there seem to be names missing.

So sorry! I fixed it. It should be coherent now.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-08-2016, 08:14 AM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2016 09:50 AM by Gloucester.)
RE: Islamophobia?
(20-08-2016 06:50 AM)Tallulah Wrote:  
(20-08-2016 06:00 AM)adey67 Wrote:  If you're afraid of Islam then I would imagine the term islamophobic is absolutely the correct one for you to use if like me you just detest the religion I think perhaps anti Islamic would be a better choice/description.

I can't say I'm 'afraid' of the religion. I just feel a tremendous amount of contempt for it, for ALL Abrahamic religions. IMO, that baby can be thrown out with the bath water.

The Hitch poses a good question about how safe one would feel running into a group of men just leaving a Mosque.

Tallulah
This is getting to be a matter of semantics as much as anything else - so what is new? Smile

OK, a first pass analysis:

Q. What are we really afraid of?
A. Being blown to bits, shot or any other form of violent death.

Q. Who can bring this upon us?
A. Anyone with access to explosives, guns, vehicles and a desire to use tham in a homicidal manner.

Q. Who has been in the front of the news in this matter over the past 28 years in terms of killing both their own and people from other nations.
A. Al Qaeda and Daesh, their associates and affiliates, plus others in a more minor role.

Q. What do these organisations have in common?
A. A claim to be the fighting force for Islam itself or for an islamic country.

------

Q. Can a fear of Islam in general be a valid, rational consequence of the above?
A. No.

Q. Are all members of the human race fully rational?
A. Not in an absolute sense.

Q. Do all members of the human race have the ability to observe in an objective manner?
A. No.

Q. Is there a type of media that routinely composes its news reports so that the more horrific side of the recounting of events, concernerning the violent actions of the above, is presented in a biased or even bigotted way?
A. Yes.

Q. Is this type of media output liable to influence the opinion of a significant proportion of the human race that has access to such.
A. Yes.

Q. Is this liable to create a sense of fear because, it seems, violent events may occur in almost any place?
A. Yes.

Q. Is this fear real to the individual?
A. Yes.

Q. Is this fear valid?
A. Yes, in terms of the possibility of violence, even if the odds are actually quite low.

Q. Is this type of fear a characteristic of human nature?
A. Yes, but it may have, cultural, regional or national graduations of how widespread and intense it becomes.
Glos.


------

Q. Is it valid to include all Muslims as causes of this fear?
A. No, but it is difficult to differentiate between ''good'' and ''bad'' Muslims unless they are well known to one. Even then phrases similar to, "He/she seemed such a nice person", have been recorded.
Glos


Q. Is there a solution to this fear?
A. There are several, but none of them are obtainable nor desirable to Muslims and/or non-Muslims.

Q. Is a viable solution to the whole situation that is acceptable by all?
A. Doubtful.

Q. Is there any way in which the fear can be made more specific to the violent groups rather than the entire Islamic membership?
A. Unknown by this author.

Q. Can those violent groups justifiably call themselves '' Islamic''?
A. Yes, in their interpretation of the Q'uran, others of the faith are allowed their own opinions.

Q. In the Western mindset can the two interpretations be easily differentiated?
A. Probably not for the average person, the sectarian differences might be understandable but religions are seen as whole blocs mostly, painted with a broad brush.


Now my brain has run out. Have not done this sort of written excercise for decades, think a portion of my brain is programmed to do it on the fly now! Can't do cloud or Venn diagrams easily on this media. But bet there is a prog or an app for doing them, and producing a portable graphic, somewhere!

No conclusions and more questions than answers I fear.But hoping it gets things in order and sparks of new ideas.

Anyone want to slot other QAs into the pattern please do so. Mark them in some way as additions and sign them pleasae.

May do more work on it another day.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Gloucester's post
20-08-2016, 09:10 AM
RE: Islamophobia?
(20-08-2016 08:14 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  OK, a first pass analysis:

Q. What are we really afraid of?
A. Being blown to bits, shot or any other form of violent death.

Q. Who can bring this upon us?
A. Anyone with access to explosives, guns, vehicles and a desire to use tham in a homicidal manner.

Q. Who has been in the front of the news in this matter over the past 28 years in terms of killing both their own and people from other nations.
A. Al Qaeda and Daesh, their associates and affiliates, plus others in a more minor role.

Q. What do these organisations have in common?
A. A claim to be the fighting force for Islam itself or for an islamic country.

------

Q. Can a fear of Islam in general be a valid, rational consequence of the above?
A. No.

Q. Are all members of the human race fully rational?
A. Not in an absolute sense.

Q. Do all members of the human race have the ability to observe in an objective manner?
A. No.

Q. Is there a type of media that routinely composes its news reports so that the more horrific side of the recounting of events, concerning the violent actions of the above, is presented in a biased or even bigoted way?
A. Yes.

Q. Is this type of media output liable to influence the opinion of a significant proportion of the human race that has access to such.
A. Yes.

Q. Is this liable to create a sense of fear because, it seems, violent events may occur in almost any place?
A. Yes.

Q. Is this fear real to the individual?
A. Yes.

Q. Is this fear valid?
A. Yes, in terms of the possibility of violence, even if the odds are actually quite low.

Q. Is this type of fear a characteristic of human nature?
A. Yes, but it may have, cultural, regional or national graduations of how widespread and intense it becomes.
Glos.

------

Q. Is it valid to include all Muslims as causes of this fear?
A. No, but it is difficult to differentiate between ''good'' and ''bad'' Muslims.

Q. Is there a solution to this fear?
A. There are several, but none of them are obtainable nor desirable to Muslims and/or non-Muslims.

Q. Is a viable solution to the whole situation that is acceptable by all?
A. Doubtful.

Q. Is there any way in which the fear can be made more specific to the violent groups rather than the entire Islamic membership?
A. Unknown by this author.

Q. Can those violent groups justifiably call themselves '' Islamic''?
A. Yes, in their interpretation of the Q'uran, others of the faith are allowed their own opinions.

Q. In the Western mindset can the two interpretations be easily differentiated?
A. Probably not for the average person, the sectarian differences might be understandable but religions are seen as whole blocs mostly, painted with a broad brush.


Now my brain has run out. Have not done this sort of written exercise for decades, think a portion of my brain is programmed to do it on the fly now! Can't do cloud or Venn diagrams easily on this media. But bet there is a prog or an app for doing them, and producing a portable graphic, somewhere!

No conclusions and more questions than answers I fear.But hoping it gets things in order and sparks of new ideas.

Anyone want to slot other QAs into the pattern please do so. Mark them in some way as additions and sign them please.

May do more work on it another day.

Excellent, Gloucester. Thank you!

Unfortunately, this still leaves me at square one. But perhaps that's the appropriate square. So now this brings me to this question: Are Muslims justified in being offended by 'Islamophobia'? Or are they every bit as Islamophobic?

I was accused of 'black and white' thinking by Ahlam. But it seems to me that a great majority of theists think in black & white. So I'm going to coin a new term.

Theistophobia. Lecture_preist

Fini!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: